Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…

[Belz...]

I would also assert that TOS humans were not some pinnacle of humanity. Kirk stated that "We're killers, but we're not going to kill today." Ie. TOS indicated that humans weren't perfect; rather they were always struggling to be better. In a sense, it was TNG that was unrealistic with the humanity perfected idea. The characters in Discovery and Picard feel more closely related to the people in TOS than later series in that they are not perfect, but constantly working to be their personal best. The hopefulness of that show, as well as of Discovery or Picard, is not that we will hit a magical end point where all our problems will be gone, but rather that we will grow into a society in which we can identify our imperfections and work to do better and be better today than we were yesterday.

And I guess that's why I prefer TOS and DS9 to TNG in that sense.

 

[TRON JA307020]

And I guess that's why I prefer TOS and DS9 to TNG in that sense.

Discovery and Picard have definitely taken a downturn from TOS. Even today watching TOs it feels like we're watching the future of humanity. Watching Discovery and Picard it seems we're watching present-day humans in futuristic surroundings. They even dress Picard in 20th century clothing for a good part of the season.

 

[TRON JA307020]

Pretty sure STAR TREK began with a Starfleet captain wallowing in angst, and contemplating quitting, because his landing party had just been slaughtered in a massacre. And the very first episode ended with a disfigured woman being left alone on an alien world.

And the second-ever episode involved the captain being forced to kill his best friend . . . .

Angst, along with extreme emotional drama, has always been part of STAR TREK.

How was Kirk having to kill his best friend that became a literal destructive God and was getting stronger every day a example of TOS being not a utopian future? Kirk was trying to not kill him most of the episode and only did it because Gary had become a danger to possibly the entire galaxy.

 

[fireproof78]

Pretty sure STAR TREK began with a Starfleet captain wallowing in angst, and contemplating quitting, because his landing party had just been slaughtered in a massacre. And the very first episode ended with a disfigured woman being left alone on an alien world.

And the second-ever episode involved the captain being forced to kill his best friend . . . .

Angst, along with extreme emotional drama, has always been part of STAR TREK.

The evolved humanity feels very much like current human problems.

 

[Belz...]

Discovery and Picard have definitely taken a downturn from TOS. Even today watching TOs it feels like we're watching the future of humanity. Watching Discovery and Picard it seems we're watching present-day humans in futuristic surroundings. They even dress Picard in 20th century clothing for a good part of the season.

I disagree. Watching DS9, DSC and PIC feels like we're watching the future of humanity AND present-day humans in futuristic surroundings. Watching TOS and TNG feels like we're watching a naive, utopic fantasy. Not that I'm complaining either way.

 

[TRON JA307020]

I disagree. Watching DS9, DSC and PIC feels like we're watching the future of humanity AND present-day humans in futuristic surroundings. Watching TOS and TNG feels like we're watching a naive, utopic fantasy. Not that I'm complaining either way.

Tos wasn't naive. Kirk killed when necessary. The federation did have to go war at times as we saw in Tos against the klingons or ds9 against the dominion. O'Brien even talked about fighting the cardassians. Utopia doesn't mean that the star trek humans are incapable of killing and will die instead of going to war with a violent alien species. Humanity on earth is a utopia. There is no longer war on earth between nations and human individuals. Its a literal paradise. Out in space its different because all aliens aren't peaceful. Humans have changed in the 23Rd century but can still fight back when threatened or war comes to them. In the new star trek series that's all changing. Humans are greedy again, swear constantly 20th century style, officers mutiny on their ship get their captain killed then getting promoted, murder former lovers because of thier "hubris" (Lol)(two different characters that didn't know each other used that word), Starfleet as a whole becomes xenophobic and let millions of romulans die. This all in a few short episodes of kurtzman trek. Oh yeah and in kurtzman trek there has to be crying at least in half the episodes. Such bad writing.

 

[Belz...]

Well I do believe you've managed to completely miss the point, which was explicitly that I don't expect human nature to change in the coming centuries. TNG is a particular offender in this regard. TOS not to much, I'll give you that, but there are more realistic portrayals in Trek lore.

Just because it isn't what you envisioned humanity to be in the future doesn't make it 'bad writing'.

Also your characterisation of what happened in Picard is misleading. The Federation abandoned the Romulan project under pressure from members who threatened to secede, and it banned synthetics for fear of a repeat of Mars. None of that is xenophobic.

 

[fireproof78]

Just because it isn't what you envisioned humanity to be in the future doesn't make it 'bad writing'.

More over, assuming that this started with Kurtzman Trek pretty much ignores the trajectory coming from ENT, the TNG films, and DS9 that Star Trek was going.

 

[Belz...]

Exactly.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I disagree Picard has destroyed the utopia. The Federation is still just as much of a utopia as it used to be. The camera just points at the places in the universe that are less idyllic. During TNG, Bajor was a brutally run slave state. The camera didn't point there, but the suffering was happening all the same.

The only difference in Picard is they moved the setting to corners of the universe the paradise didn't reach.

 

[cooleddie74]

Picard lives in a world where every basic need is met through technology. He has a replicator in his kitchen that can presumably make every dish of food or beverage known to the device's database. Doesn't sound like a dystopia to me at all.

 

[dupersuper]

Picard lives in a world where every basic need is met through technology. He has a replicator in his kitchen that can presumably make every dish of food or beverage known to the device's database. Doesn't sound like a dystopia to me at all.

They have Fox News. Total dystopia.

 

[fireproof78]

How dare they?

 

[Dukhat]

They even dress Picard in 20th century clothing for a good part of the season.

This is the 50th time you’ve brought this beating-a-dead-horse topic up, and this is the 50th time I’m going to ask you this question: Please enlighten us all as to how you would have had Picard dress?

(And just for the record, you never answered me the last 50 times I asked you.)

 

[cooleddie74]

And Kirk dresses in 1988 denim and a "Go Climb A Rock" T-shirt in TFF. What's his point?

 

[fireproof78]

There is no point. It is simply the Obscenity law of Star Trek utopianism. I don't know how to define it but I know it when I see it.

 

[cooleddie74]

Pike in the illusory flashback sequence to Mojave in "The Cage(TOS)" wears 1960s denim, jeans and boots. Trek has been doing the contemporary clothing thing since literally the beginning.

 

[Dukhat]

I only bring it up because I’m pretty sure he doesn’t care about it anywhere near as much as he’s acting like he does.

 

[fireproof78]

I only bring it up because I’m pretty sure he doesn’t care about it anywhere near as much as he’s acting like he does.

I don't believe the people arguing that Picard destroyed Star Trek's utopia actually believe it either or care about it. Just a talking point.

 

[SJGardner]

I have a creeping feeling we're going to see iteration No.790047 of the "I don't have to be a costume designer to know his outfit doesn't fit the setting, it's their job to figure it out how it should look, not mine" pseudo-argument soon.