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Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…

Pubert said:
How was Kirk having to kill his best friend that became a literal destructive God and was getting stronger every day a example of TOS being not a utopian future? Kirk was trying to not kill him most of the episode and only did it because Gary had become a danger to possibly the entire galaxy.
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I was talking about the angst, as in the previous complaint about "angst-driven" characters.

The "utopia" thing is arguably a different issue, although I can argue that TOS was never as "utopian" as some modern fans like to claim it was. And even TNG conceded that its "utopian" ideals were sometimes more fragile than they wanted to think they were. Remember "The Drumhead"?

Ideals, almost by definition, are something you aspire to but too often fall short of. That's what make them ideals.
 
Greg Cox said:
I was talking about the angst, as in the previous complaint about "angst-driven" characters.

The "utopia" thing is arguably a different issue, although I can argue that TOS was never as "utopian" as some modern fans like to claim it was. And even TNG conceded that its "utopian" ideals were sometimes more fragile than they wanted to think they were. Remember "The Drumhead"?

Ideals, almost by definition, are something you aspire to but too often fall short of. That's what make them ideals.
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Honestly, I think Star Trek's utopia gets viewed in TOS from a TNG lens. In other words, we are giving Roddenberry credit for his "more evolved humanity" in TOS after the fact that it was presented in TNG. I'm not saying that TOS humans are not aspirational but that they still had failings that fall far short of what the utopian nature of TNG became. Kirk and McCoy being great examples, but Styles in his response to Spock isn't told to be reeducated or whatever. There is simply no place for his attitude on the bridge and he is expected to conduct himself as a professional.

Utopian vision sounds nice until faced with rather painful reality.
 
No currency.

Replicators.

A clothing designer has no reason beyond art, to keep producing product, and limited means of advertising their product, so how can their product range get added to a million random replicator casches?

Influencers?

Did Picard have final approval on the default clothing options on his Enterprise?

Could he censor replication patterns that he found distasteful or offensive? Dude could go totes mental and ban the colour green. Imagine a grampa telling a few thousand child n what they are and are not allowed to wear.

Fashion might be reversed and held static to what was normal 40 years ago.

If Wesley had any choice what so ever, would he really be replicating those busted ass sweaters every morning and decompiling them every night, only to make something a little uglier the next morning?
 
Greg Cox said:
Pretty sure STAR TREK began with a Starfleet captain wallowing in angst, and contemplating quitting, because his landing party had just been slaughtered in a massacre. And the very first episode ended with a disfigured woman being left alone on an alien world.

And the second-ever episode involved the captain being forced to kill his best friend . . . .

Angst, along with extreme emotional drama, has always been part of STAR TREK.
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Yeah Gene's real vision.
Fans complaining about 20th century swearing, need a history lesson on the extremely old F word
 
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fireproof78 said:
I trust DS9 and TUC did as well.
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No. I am so sick of people mistaking the darker tone of DS9 with the cynicism of Picard. DS9 was a show on the frontier...beyond the frontier, actually. Outside of Federation space. So much of the crux of that show was specifically the contrast between that setting and the paradise of Earth and the rest of the Federation. Picard has the Federation itself being sad and scared and xenophobic and isolationist and reactionary. Not just the random crazy admiral of the week, but the society as a whole. The people were against saving Romulans. 14 worlds threatened to leave because of it. They have 21st style shoddy "journalists". I get that this is the Federation after several Borg attacks, the Dominion War, the destruction of Utopia Planetia, et al. I get why they've regressed. It's just not what I want to watch. Much like I get they were trying to give Superman no choice but to snap Zods neck in Man of Steel, and clearly it's what Zod wanted after his purpose of defending Krypton was no more. But that and the washed out reckless disaster porn that preceded it isn't what I watch Superman for.
 
dupersuper said:
No. I am so sick of people mistaking the darker tone of DS9 with the cynicism of Picard. DS9 was a show on the frontier...beyond the frontier, actually. Outside of Federation space. So much of the crux of that show was specifically the contrast between that setting and the paradise of Earth and the rest of the Federation. Picard has the Federation itself being sad and scared and xenophobic and isolationist and reactionary. Not just the random crazy admiral of the week, but the society as a whole. The people were against saving Romulans. 14 worlds threatened to leave because of it. They have 21st style shoddy "journalists". I get that this is the Federation after several Borg attacks, the Dominion War, the destruction of Utopia Planetia, et al. I get why they've regressed. It's just not what I want to watch. Much like I get they were trying to give Superman no choice but to snap Zods neck in Man of Steel, and clearly it's what Zod wanted after his purpose of defending Krypton was no more. But that and the washed out reckless disaster porn that preceded it isn't what I watch Superman for.
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Agree to disagree. The tone was entirely similar to me from Picard and DS9 and TUC, exposing humanity's weaknesses and foibles. Demonstrating that the Federation was not engaged in mindless group think of uniformed opinion. Consistent with the human nature presented in TOS. Cynical would be PIcard succeeding in his task and the Federation unmoved. .

And Superman has no bearing on this conversation so I have no idea why that is coming up. I trust Superman will do quite well in whatever other show he appears in. :shrug:
 
Nyotarules said:
Yeah Gene's real vision.
Fans complaining about 20th century swearing, need a history lesson on the extremely old F word
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In star trek the voyage home they had two or three whole scenes on swearing and how 23rd century humans speech excluded that type of language. Language and speech does change through the centuries. If you traveled back 300 years you would probably have some trouble with some words that were popular back on the lexicon back them. Language when we are talking about slang does change over the decades and centuries. Gene had it right when he made language on star trek very clean and straight forward. No one say "hey dude sup" because things has changed by then .
 
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Why the hell am I hearing I Got You Babe again?
 
Pubert said:
In star trek Voyager they had two or three whole scenes on swearing and how 23rd century humans speech excluded that type of language. Language and speech does change through the centuries. If you traveled back 300 years you would probably have some trouble with some words that were popular back on the lexicon back them. Language when we are talking about slang does change over the decades and centuries. Gene had it right when he made language on star trek very clean and straight forward. No one say "hey dude sup" because things has changed by then .
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I guess you didn’t like it when Data said ‘oh shit’

Get over yourself. The only reason they didn’t swear is because of network rules. A few fucks isn’t hurting anyone.
 
Pubert said:
In star trek Voyager they had two or three whole scenes on swearing and how 23rd century humans speech excluded that type of language. Language and speech does change through the centuries. If you traveled back 300 years you would probably have some trouble with some words that were popular back on the lexicon back them. Language when we are talking about slang does change over the decades and centuries. Gene had it right when he made language on star trek very clean and straight forward. No one say "hey dude sup" because things has changed by then .
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Even Shakespeare would recognise the F word. Gene had to make the language clean for TV, it was the 60s.
 
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