Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

[ronny]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Picked up LFM today and lunch and had a reading marathon tonight.

Good solid adventure. The type of book where you you kind of know where it's going but there is enough question about how the action is going to turn out that you're still turning pages.

The Trip thing was a pleasant bonus and seriously wasn't expecting that.

Rarely do I do this. But this is from the heart, not the head.

I'd agree with that assessment but it still works. Another case where the unanswered questions, well question, "why?", are leaving me waiting for the next book. Good job.

And the gangster book joke was pretty funny...

 

[Towerwatcher]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Posted by TerriO

posted by Towerwatcher I cannot, cannot wait to get my sticky mits on this book now! :thumbsup:

And you were SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ready to dismiss everything as crap without even giving it a chance.

What? I have always maintained that I would buy Rosetta, (which I did - great read), and Last Full Measure, (which I will if my back can take the boneshaker bus to Maidstone and it's in stock), the latter to especially see about the Trip revelation about which we were told. I have always said that if they didn't bring Trip back only then would I bail on the books. Ent books before the death, he's just waiting to die, Ent books without Trip, no. Just no.

And the crap - again - was in direct reference to the events of TATV when Trip died and no-one noticed or cared except for T'Pol who sniffed his pants in grief!

I haven't changed my position at all!

pookha said:
as for what berman intended would do keep this quote in mind from july of 2005.

As for killing off Commander Tucker, "I doubt we would have done it if we were coming back [for Season 5] ....as far as Brannon and myself were concerned, the writing was on the wall. We would have been totally shocked if the show had been picked up [for Season 5], and if it had we probably would have made changes to the final episode."

So the new books will be actually carrying out the producer's intentions. I see no disrespect there. Berman said in Jan of 2006 (Star Trek Magazine. #124;

There is no way we would have killed Trip, or killed him permanently, if the series was not going to be over.

Naturally, as a TV producer, Berman would think Enterprise 'over', but that's never true of any Trek series. If Enterprise is to continue on in books after the show, then the producer's intentions should remain. That Trip does not stay dead. If Trip surviving is making some people say they won't buy the Relaunch books, well they're going to be well outnumbered by those Trip fans who will! There's a point to the bit between Terra Prime and the end for me now. And there's sunshine after.

Margaret

Rarely do I do this. But this is from the heart, not the head.

And from the heart, I thank you, Margaret.

 

[Corran Horn]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Bobatiel said:

MargaretClark said:
Rarely do I do this. But this is from the heart, not the head.

And many thanks for it!

Now that's a valentine for the fans.

Your post makes me feel very good about your perceptions of Star Trek and your position as editor. It's so refreshing to read something from somoeone official that is right from the heart. I fully understand why it's rare, but rest assured it is very much appreciated.

I heartily agree.

While I do not know the particulars of Trip's situation as shown in LFM (it's on its way to me as we speak) we have seen there be several times in trek's past that the reality of events has played out different than what's been known/revealed to onscreen characters.

I see no problem with 'history needed to believe Trip was dead' at all. It's really quite intriguing.

 

[Christopher]

Smiley said:
Let's get the obvious out of the way first. Trip is "NOT. DEAD." How he survived and why he needed to have history consider him dead are still open questions.

"Then, an accidental overdose of technobabble radiation altered his body chemistry. And now, when Trip Tucker grows angry or outraged, a startling metamorphosis occurs. Trip Tucker is believed to be dead. And he must let the world think that he is dead until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him."

My favorite bit of humor was the name of Trahve's ship. I wonder how many people get it before Hayes gives it away in a later chapter.

I was surprised it didn't translate as Thousand-Year Bird of Prey, considering that Kaletoo was basically Tatooine, complete with Grakka the Hutt and a cantina band. I mentally cast Mark Hamill as Trahve.

MargaretClark said:
I read the script for “These Are The Voyages…” and was… horrified… naw I HATED it. This was how they were ending the show? REALLY? In my opinion, this was not a meaningful death. (See: Spock, ST:II) It was almost as if someone had said, “Well, someone has to die, let’s kill a popular character. Let’s kill Trip.”

Of course, real life is full of meaningless deaths, and I don't share the attitude that fictional deaths ought to be noble and meaningful. To me, that's trying to avoid the reality that death is an arbitrary, uncaring, and routinely unfair thing.

The problem with Trip's (apparent) death wasn't that it was meaningless, but that it was slapdash. In theory, he gave his life to protect his crewmates, which is never meaningless if you ask me, no matter how minor the foe. But the way it was presented was awkward and implausible; it's hard to believe an engineer of his caliber couldn't think of a way to stop those pirates that didn't involve blowing himself up. Plus you're right, it was kind of tacked on to the story... although one could argue that the whole episode was tacked on.

I don’t take contradicting established continuity lightly. I respect the show(s) and the fans (being one myself). But TATV was many things, one thing it was NOT was, “A love letter to the fans.”
...
Rarely do I do this. But this is from the heart, not the head.

I'm mainly curious, not about the why, but about the how -- namely, how you were able to get this approved. But I suppose that all of the people involved in creating TATV have moved on and the novel authors/editors aren't answering to them anymore on any level. And of course, with Trip spending the rest of his life incognito, the decision doesn't really contradict anything that might follow.

Also I'm curious about your ideas for what could've possibly required Trip to fake his death, but I guess that's something that will be developed in future novels. Which means, I suppose, that there will be novels taking place around the time of TATV as well as in the six-year gap preceding it.

 

[Hoshi's sis]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

MargaretClark said:

Brendan Moody said:

Baerbel Haddrell said:
On the other hand, this was the first Trek death that is told in the form of a holodeck program which opens possibilities that are not available in other cases.

Not meaningful ones in the context of this complaint. No matter which side of this godforsaken debate you're on, the fact that the story was told via a holoprogram is irrelevant. Whether it was presented in "real life," as a holoprogram, or as something a drunken Montgomery Scott acted out with shadowpuppets, the intention of the story is obviously that Trip died. That this story offered its own unique ways of sneaking around that intention is beside the point, in that it doesn't make setting aside Trip's death qualitatively different from any other instance.

Once more dear friends….

Right.

I read the script for “These Are The Voyages…” and was… horrified… naw I HATED it. This was how they were ending the show? REALLY? In my opinion, this was not a meaningful death. (See: Spock, ST:II) It was almost as if someone had said, “Well, someone has to die, let’s kill a popular character. Let’s kill Trip.”

I waited until I saw the show, even more… annoyed (NOT the verb I would like to use) seeing it. But I thought about it, and I thought I knew what could/would work and what I’d like to do. I went with my heart. (I didn’t go near the boards.)

Now with the change of the publishing program, LFM got moved, big time. I suggested the framing sequence, to the M&M boys, to acknowledge the passage of time. They gave me one. Then, I started reading the interviews that Mr. Berman and Mr. Braga gave on the show finale… I called M. “Nice story but I wonder… let’s change the framing.” Huh? “Let’s make it (short version) Trip, and while we are at it, let’s have him meet a very serious George Samuel Kirk, and his young kid brother, Jim.”

I don’t take contradicting established continuity lightly. I respect the show(s) and the fans (being one myself). But TATV was many things, one thing it was NOT was, “A love letter to the fans.”

Cry Harry, England and Saint George….

Margaret

Rarely do I do this. But this is from the heart, not the head.

Thank you Margaret.

I wasn't looking forward to the relaunch. Trip was my favourite character, and frankly yes, if he isn't included then I won't buy any more Enterprise books, even if they are well written.
I'm not much of a fan of Mayweather but I heard good things about this book, and as you promised, a hint of what the relaunch would be about.
I'm gland to say I enjoyed it and thought the writing and character development was really well done. I'm looking forward to seeing what else is being written. Thanks for restoring my faith.

 

[tothebridge]

I've finished Last Full Measure and give it a rating of 8.5 out of 10.

This book by far has some of the best characterization that I've seen to date in the ENT books. It is full of little details about the characters -- distinctive mannerisms and traits (like Archer's brow furrow), nuggets about families/backgrounds, and deftly shifting POV's, which make the characters seems like deeper versions of their onscreen selves.

Admittedly, I was a bit wary of a Mayweather-centric book, but my fears were largely unfounded. The conflict between Mayweather and Chang was handled well and from both points of view. All the other crew (except perhaps Phlox and Hoshi) had significant moments as well, especially Archer and Malcolm. Archer's internal conflict over compromising his principles was very realistically portrayed. And a single powerful childhood recollection provided significant insights into Malcolm's personality. Trip's struggles with Lizzie's death and his reaction to the neuropressure with T'Pol were intriguing, and there were some nice insights into Major Hayes as well.

Although the timeline is set early in the Xindi arc, the Xindi plot developed in LFM was sufficiently plausible and relevant. The two parallel missions were woven together very realistically and the pace of the action as well as the actual events kept things interesting. The Xindi Council scenes were a welcome addition as well, and it was good to get some additional insights into the rationale for their approach.

One of the few things that keeps me from giving the book the highest rating is the Guitierrez subplot, which I thought was a bit weak towards the end. I am still struggling with finding a satisfactory rationale for why and how Guitierrez ended up returning to the shuttlepod given her apparent state of mind and also the stalemate that she and Eby seemed to have achieved right before the Xindi ship showed up.

Although I think T'Pol was largely in character for the timeframe of the book, I would have liked to see more of her POV, which has been lacking IMO in some of the previous ENT books. It would have been nice to see how she was adjusting to separation from the VHC, whether the Panars syndrome was affecting her control, and/or perhaps some foreshadowing on the struggle with emotions, which was to come.

As for the prologue and epilogue, which occur 77 years after the Charter signing, I thought those were masterfully written, and I hope this is a framing device that is used in future books. I'm quite happy with the premise that history has only presumed Trip dead and am intrigued by the possibilities this presents for future stories. I agree that there's nothing in LFM that really contradicts what is seen onscreen in TATV -- it just provides a different spin on the onscreen events. And, it actually makes some of TATV seem a bit more sensible. For example in the last scene, the complaints about seating, absence of any mention of Trip, and T'Pol staying behind in the "green room" can take on a different context given Trip's "non-death."

Just to respond to something Smiley said earlier....

Smiley said
I'm glad to see that Trip is alive, but I'm also worried about the way his life will change after his supposed death.
.

I am also a bit concerned about this. From the info presented so far, it's certainly not clear what type of life Trip had post-TATV. However, I hope he will be able to continue relationships with those closest to him (T'Pol, Archer, Malcolm) even if his lifestyle post-TATV becomes somewhat secret and unconventional. Given everything that happened to Trip over the four years of the t.v. series, I'd like to think he will have some kind of happiness in his future (and that we will get to read about it in the relaunch).

Oh, and I almost forgot to mention that I really enjoyed the shout-outs to TOS in the prologue/epilogue -- Trip meeting the Kirk family and Little Jimmy; also finding that Trip had contributed anonymously to Marvick's blueprints for the new Constitution-class ships.

There's a lot more to be said about this book, but I'll leave it for now. Thank you to Margaret Clark, Michael Martin, and Andy Mangels for a very good novel. And I hope Messrs. Martin and Mangels will be available to write for the upcoming ENT relaunch.

 

[Andy Mangels]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Christopher said:

My favorite bit of humor was the name of Trahve's ship. I wonder how many people get it before Hayes gives it away in a later chapter.

I was surprised it didn't translate as Thousand-Year Bird of Prey, considering that Kaletoo was basically Tatooine, complete with Grakka the Hutt and a cantina band. I mentally cast Mark Hamill as Trahve.

Why sir, I have no idea what you are saying! What is this Tattooine and Hutt? And why would the actor in Corvette Summer be in your mind as Trahve?

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

I have not read the book, so why a 77 year for the epilogue?

 

[Smiley]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Ronald Held said:
I have not read the book, so why a 77 year for the epilogue?

The prologue and epilogue, or framing sequence, take place at the Starfleet Memorial, and the main story is a remembrance of events in the past. The Xindi story does not necessarily require the frame, but it helps set up the Relaunch.

 

[Ronald Held]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Thanks, Smiley.

 

[quazar]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Oy vay! I am so going to go pick this up pronto!

 

[ronny]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

I'm newish to the boards but I don't remember this many people in the Warpath spoiler thread saying "oh boy, that's the surprise? i can't wait to pick up the book".

just seems odd to me. *shrug*

 

[Smiley]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

It's odd to me, too. While the framing sequences are extremely cool, the main story is about MACOs and Starfleet personnel working toward a common objective. I think it's more noteworthy that Mayweather finally has a major role in the books.

 

[ronny]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Yeah, I get the impression a lot of people are going to read the book FOR the framing stuff.

The main story was very good. I think the only reason I'm not jumping up and down saying how great it is is because I've read a lot of great books recently, TTN, AotC, ATT..., Warpath and I'm not sure I like it as much as some of those but that's kind of a dumb comparison since not a lot of books are going to be that good.

Like I said in my previous post, a good solid story and I would recommend to people who have any interest in Enterprise. M&M are still batting 1000 as far as I'm concerned and I believe I've read all thier ST novels.

I'm kind of wondering what the reaction would be without the framing stuff.

 

[MargaretClark]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Smiley said:

Ronald Held said:
I have not read the book, so why a 77 year for the epilogue?

The prologue and epilogue, or framing sequence, take place at the Starfleet Memorial, and the main story is a remembrance of events in the past. The Xindi story does not necessarily require the frame, but it helps set up the Relaunch.

Weelllll… true, but if you read carefully, you will see that Trip remembers that the memorial (pictured on the cover) was originally meant for those who fell in the Xindi attack, it was the sequent Romulan war that modified the original purpose. Naw… your right.

Margaret

 

[Trippy]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

ronny said:
Yeah, I get the impression a lot of people are going to read the book FOR the framing stuff.

The main story was very good. I think the only reason I'm not jumping up and down saying how great it is is because I've read a lot of great books recently, TTN, AotC, ATT..., Warpath and I'm not sure I like it as much as some of those but that's kind of a dumb comparison since not a lot of books are going to be that good.

Like I said in my previous post, a good solid story and I would recommend to people who have any interest in Enterprise. M&M are still batting 1000 as far as I'm concerned and I believe I've read all thier ST novels.

I'm kind of wondering what the reaction would be without the framing stuff.

I've also read M&M's ( ) Roswell novels and loved them...damn I wish I could find this book in Canada already...

 

[tothebridge]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

ronny said:
Yeah, I get the impression a lot of people are going to read the book FOR the framing stuff.

The main story was very good. I think the only reason I'm not jumping up and down saying how great it is is because I've read a lot of great books recently, TTN, AotC, ATT..., Warpath and I'm not sure I like it as much as some of those but that's kind of a dumb comparison since not a lot of books are going to be that good.

I can't say I'm really surprised folks are showing such interest in the framing segment. TATV created strong reactions, so it seems natural that anything TATV-related in the book series will receive a lot of attention. I remember an ENT book/TATV-related thread in the Lit forum late last year that generated quite a bit of vigorous debate.

As for how LFM compares to other Trek books, I've only read some of the ENT and Titan series so far, so I'm not really calibrated properly to the broader selection.

My rating for LFM (8.5) probably does have a bit of a halo effect because I tend to be biased toward strong characterization, and I feel LFM was excellent in that area. I would guess there are other ST books/series that address more epic conflicts and/or events, but I still think the Xindi mission and MACO elements of LFM are engaging and adventurous enough to make a good story.

 

[MargaretClark]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

The offical release date is May 1. Most retailers pay no heed to that down here don't know about Canada.

Margaret

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

ronny said:
I'm newish to the boards but I don't remember this many people in the Warpath spoiler thread saying "oh boy, that's the surprise? i can't wait to pick up the book".

just seems odd to me. *shrug*

I am still waiting for Warpath. My comic supplier sent me my comics but forgot to include the book in spite they promised me to do so by email. I reminded them, hopefully it won`t be much longer.

I love reading spoilers. A lot of what I read about "Warpath" is very interesting and appealing. But what is treated as surprising is first of all about true identities. I never liked this gimmick to give characters different names and then reveal somewhere down the line who that person really is. And the more I read about the involvement of the Mirror Universe I wondered, why doing it simply and straight forward when you can be as complicated as possible?

Fortunately there are many other topics in it but I must admit, my enthusiasm has suffered somewhat although I am confident, even if I should dislike that aspect of the book, there is a lot to enjoy.

 

[commodore64]

Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

23skidoo said:
Someone added a reference to this plot to a couple of Wikipedia articles. As an administrator I actually deleted the edits at first, believing them to be bogus. I came to this thread to see if it was true. I'll admit I'm quite stunned. I'll still read the book, but while Margaret's reasoning (albeit yet another TATV kick) makes some sense, I'm actually finding myself (perhaps for the very first time), agreeing with The Realist's POV on this.

If there was some sort of "Cartmel Plan" behind the death of Trip in TATV (that's a very obscure Doctor Who reference but I'm sure at least some of the writers here will know what I mean) that was left undeveloped due to the cancellation, OK I could see the books picking up the thread and running with it (much as the Doctor Who novels that followed its cancellation continued developing the Cartmel Plan) ... but I can't help but see this in the same light as I might see David Marcus being revealed to have somehow faked his death in STIII. I'd have preferred to see the Relaunch books do some sort of foreshadowing -- maybe Trip found out through Daniels that he died or something. Knee-jerk reaction is this has soured me on the Relaunch -- and it hasn't even happened. You may all want Rick Berman and Brannon Braga to die horrible deaths, but the fact is they created this branch of the Trek franchise, and to undo their decisions regarding the finale IMO shows an unnecessary lack of respect. Did the DS9 Relaunch undo what happened in the IMO poor finale "What You Leave Behind"? No, they didn't.

First Starfleet Academy, now "Trip ain't dead." This has been a rather disappointing week for this Trek fan.

The sad part is this appears to have overshadowed the rest of the book, which is probably an excellent tale.

Alex

Completely agreed. Sounds a bit hokey and something possibly made of fanfiction (which is probably where it should've stayed). I've been disappointed in general with the Star Trek: Enterprise books. The only one I liked was (besides Broken Bow) was "What Price Honor." The rest seem like ... well, I think watching paint dry might be more exciting.