Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!)
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Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Sorry... I meant Margaret, of course. My weekly brain fart came on a Tuesday this week it seems. No offense intended, Margaret! Much love and respect out to you, from me.
My hats off to Michael and Andy. As I said, the book's a good read.
Not to mention that they... you know... were never really alive in the first place, fictional folk that they are.
And Piper... if nothing else, resurrecting Tucker makes good business sense. Like him or not, he was clearly one of the more popular characters with fans of the show. If you're going to launch a successful book line based on the series, it only makes sense to have all your characters available to work with. And as several people have already pointed out here, his death in TATV did leave a lot of room for question and head-scratching (his body was never shown, his actions were hasty, ill-considered and somewhat out of character, etc). The notion that it was all a deliberate hoax, presumably meant to fool SOMEONE, does make better sense of what we saw in the episode.
But again as others have said, Tucker is really barely in the book. If you liked Enterprise, and the character of Travis in particular, the book is well worth reading - a good value for just $7.99 USD if you ask me.
Sorry... I meant Margaret, of course. My weekly brain fart came on a Tuesday this week it seems. No offense intended, Margaret! Much love and respect out to you, from me.
My hats off to Michael and Andy. As I said, the book's a good read.
Not to mention that they... you know... were never really alive in the first place, fictional folk that they are.
And Piper... if nothing else, resurrecting Tucker makes good business sense. Like him or not, he was clearly one of the more popular characters with fans of the show. If you're going to launch a successful book line based on the series, it only makes sense to have all your characters available to work with. And as several people have already pointed out here, his death in TATV did leave a lot of room for question and head-scratching (his body was never shown, his actions were hasty, ill-considered and somewhat out of character, etc). The notion that it was all a deliberate hoax, presumably meant to fool SOMEONE, does make better sense of what we saw in the episode.
But again as others have said, Tucker is really barely in the book. If you liked Enterprise, and the character of Travis in particular, the book is well worth reading - a good value for just $7.99 USD if you ask me.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
By your own admission, you've not read the book. By definition, your opinion on the book cannot be informed.
Since I know Margaret as more than just some name on an Internet message board, I'm comfortable with her decisions and her reasons for making them, and I'm confident in her approach to the ENT novel line.
By your own admission, you've not read the book. By definition, your opinion on the book cannot be informed.
Since I know Margaret as more than just some name on an Internet message board, I'm comfortable with her decisions and her reasons for making them, and I'm confident in her approach to the ENT novel line.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
I love the smell of bitch-slap in the morning...
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Well that would be great for the publishing company of course, if the only way I could have an informed opinion is buying the damned thing. She (the editor in question)came here and spoke from the heart about how she felt B&B handled the series finale, and I came here and sopke from the heart about how I felt she handled this book. I don't need to read or buy this book to already know what's in it, that's the joy of being here on a messageboard and reading spoilers.
Well that would be great for the publishing company of course, if the only way I could have an informed opinion is buying the damned thing. She (the editor in question)came here and spoke from the heart about how she felt B&B handled the series finale, and I came here and sopke from the heart about how I felt she handled this book. I don't need to read or buy this book to already know what's in it, that's the joy of being here on a messageboard and reading spoilers.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
I didn't say you attacked her character. I said you attacked her professionalism; you said that Ms. Clark must have "too much time on her hands," but I know for a fact that editing is a very time-consuming job. By implying that she had too much free time and that this prompted her to make poor creative decisions, you basically said that she wasn't doing her job. That's an insult to her professionalism, and I think that's unfair -- especially since Ms. Clark is apparently busy enough with her job that she doesn't post here nearly so often as Marco Palmieri does (which is not, BTW, to say that Marco is in any way himself unprofessional).
I agree, and I think it's unreasonable to imply that the Trip character is recieving nearly the amount of attention in the novels that he recieves (disproportionately, I'd add) on the 'Net.
No one said that (save the aforementioned overly-zealous Tuckerites). But the novels have been taking things that didn't make sense in the canon and using that as a jumping point for great stories for years now. Relatively few fans really give a damn about Shinzon of Remus, but that didn't stop the folks at Pocket from making an amazing miniseries in A Time To... that set up the movie (and frankly redeemed a few of its worst points).
That's not her only concern, and it's very unreasonable of you to make such a claim. Ms. Clark has stated her reasons for revealing Trip's survival, and she's also made it clear that she almost never makes decisions like that and that this was an exception. Others have commented that the exception is justifiable, in part because the canonical manner of Trip's death is wholly out-of-character and, from a plot POV, nonsensical -- and, as I already said, the novels often use nonsensical events in the canon as jumping off points for new stories.
Part of the reason for it was to foreshadow the upcoming "ENT Relaunch." Similarly, that's why sample chapters from Homecoming were included in the novelization of Endgame. And if you haven't read the novel, won't you concede that it's possible that the framing sequence, while not contribute to the main plot, might contribute thematic elements and commentary on the main plot that may be enlightening?
You already have. Christopher L. Bennet (Ex Machina, Orion's Hounds), for instance, commented above that he thinks it makes sense in explaining the nonsensical plot elements occuring in the canonical death.
I didn't say you attacked her character. I said you attacked her professionalism; you said that Ms. Clark must have "too much time on her hands," but I know for a fact that editing is a very time-consuming job. By implying that she had too much free time and that this prompted her to make poor creative decisions, you basically said that she wasn't doing her job. That's an insult to her professionalism, and I think that's unfair -- especially since Ms. Clark is apparently busy enough with her job that she doesn't post here nearly so often as Marco Palmieri does (which is not, BTW, to say that Marco is in any way himself unprofessional).
I agree, and I think it's unreasonable to imply that the Trip character is recieving nearly the amount of attention in the novels that he recieves (disproportionately, I'd add) on the 'Net.
No one said that (save the aforementioned overly-zealous Tuckerites). But the novels have been taking things that didn't make sense in the canon and using that as a jumping point for great stories for years now. Relatively few fans really give a damn about Shinzon of Remus, but that didn't stop the folks at Pocket from making an amazing miniseries in A Time To... that set up the movie (and frankly redeemed a few of its worst points).
That's not her only concern, and it's very unreasonable of you to make such a claim. Ms. Clark has stated her reasons for revealing Trip's survival, and she's also made it clear that she almost never makes decisions like that and that this was an exception. Others have commented that the exception is justifiable, in part because the canonical manner of Trip's death is wholly out-of-character and, from a plot POV, nonsensical -- and, as I already said, the novels often use nonsensical events in the canon as jumping off points for new stories.
Part of the reason for it was to foreshadow the upcoming "ENT Relaunch." Similarly, that's why sample chapters from Homecoming were included in the novelization of Endgame. And if you haven't read the novel, won't you concede that it's possible that the framing sequence, while not contribute to the main plot, might contribute thematic elements and commentary on the main plot that may be enlightening?
You already have. Christopher L. Bennet (Ex Machina, Orion's Hounds), for instance, commented above that he thinks it makes sense in explaining the nonsensical plot elements occuring in the canonical death.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Hey, at least Marco keeps it real. No offense to anyone here, but I refuse to kiss anyone's ass just because they have a special position. This is a place for opinions and that includes opinions about the shows, the producers, the writers (show), the effects and anything else, which includes the books and all thats involved with them.
Clark is the one responsible for adding the framing sequnce to the novel when it didn't need it, of couse that's all my opinion but we all know what opinions are like don't we?
Hey, at least Marco keeps it real. No offense to anyone here, but I refuse to kiss anyone's ass just because they have a special position. This is a place for opinions and that includes opinions about the shows, the producers, the writers (show), the effects and anything else, which includes the books and all thats involved with them.
Clark is the one responsible for adding the framing sequnce to the novel when it didn't need it, of couse that's all my opinion but we all know what opinions are like don't we?
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
No one's asking you to kiss anyone's ass. What I, as a fellow poster, am asking you to do is to make your critique without insulting anyone's professionalism. Why you refuse to do that -- and why you then respond to me by commenting that Marco "keeps it real," as though Margaret does not, therefore engaging in another ad hominem attack -- completely eludes me. No one's asking for butt-kissing, only for basic respect.
If you haven't read the novel, then you don't know that it didn't *need* it. You've pointed to plot spoilers as evidence that you can have an educated opinion on the content of the novel, but that's inaccurate; plot spoilers only tell you part of the story. They certainly don't tell you about thematic commentary, which is what many framing sequences in many different novels serve as -- and thematic commentary can be very important to a story's content.
EDITED TO ADD:
Note: I'm not saying that the novel did need the framing sequence, either. I've read the prologue and epilogue, but haven't read the main body of the novel yet, so I have no opinion on the necessity or appropriateness of the framing sequence's presence one way or the other. My goal above was to simply point out that a lack of plot contribution does not equal a lack of worthwhile contribution to the story, and thus one cannot have an educated opinion about the necessity of or appropriateness of the framing sequence's presence in the novel without having read it.
No one's asking you to kiss anyone's ass. What I, as a fellow poster, am asking you to do is to make your critique without insulting anyone's professionalism. Why you refuse to do that -- and why you then respond to me by commenting that Marco "keeps it real," as though Margaret does not, therefore engaging in another ad hominem attack -- completely eludes me. No one's asking for butt-kissing, only for basic respect.
If you haven't read the novel, then you don't know that it didn't *need* it. You've pointed to plot spoilers as evidence that you can have an educated opinion on the content of the novel, but that's inaccurate; plot spoilers only tell you part of the story. They certainly don't tell you about thematic commentary, which is what many framing sequences in many different novels serve as -- and thematic commentary can be very important to a story's content.
EDITED TO ADD:
Note: I'm not saying that the novel did need the framing sequence, either. I've read the prologue and epilogue, but haven't read the main body of the novel yet, so I have no opinion on the necessity or appropriateness of the framing sequence's presence one way or the other. My goal above was to simply point out that a lack of plot contribution does not equal a lack of worthwhile contribution to the story, and thus one cannot have an educated opinion about the necessity of or appropriateness of the framing sequence's presence in the novel without having read it.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Nobody's saying you can't express your opinion, but if you're going to be rude about it, then expect to get called on it.
Real enough for you?
Nobody's saying you can't express your opinion, but if you're going to be rude about it, then expect to get called on it.
Real enough for you?
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Yeah, okay... Piper you've lost me. Knowing all about what's in a book just by reading the spoilers on a messageboard is a lot like knowing all about what's going on with the war in Iraq, or in politics, or science by watching The O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, The Daily Show or The Colbert Report. You should never get the facts, upon which you base your own opinions, pre-digested. Just a suggestion.
I have read the book, and I'm tell you that you're blowing the Trip thing just as out of proportion as the so-called "Tuckerites" by your reaction here. He's barely in the book, despite the fact that the main body of the text is set early in the Second Season. In point of fact, he's actually unconscious for most of that time!
Yeah, okay... Piper you've lost me. Knowing all about what's in a book just by reading the spoilers on a messageboard is a lot like knowing all about what's going on with the war in Iraq, or in politics, or science by watching The O'Reilly Factor, Hardball, The Daily Show or The Colbert Report. You should never get the facts, upon which you base your own opinions, pre-digested. Just a suggestion.
I have read the book, and I'm tell you that you're blowing the Trip thing just as out of proportion as the so-called "Tuckerites" by your reaction here. He's barely in the book, despite the fact that the main body of the text is set early in the Second Season. In point of fact, he's actually unconscious for most of that time!
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Please...
Sweetheart. You call this "heat"?
Please...
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Fact One: The book entitled Last Full Measure has a framing sequence outside of the main body of the story.
Fact 2: This framing sequence involves the character of Trip Tucker.
Fact 3: Margret Clark decides to make it her own personal crusade to right the wrongs of Rick Berman and Brannon Braga by making choices "from her heart" and saving Trip Tucker.
Already there are 3 main facts that I got just from reading the posts here. So yeah, I can make an opinion about how stupid it was to worry about the Trip Tucker thing without spending 10 bucks of my hard earned money.
Fact One: The book entitled Last Full Measure has a framing sequence outside of the main body of the story.
Fact 2: This framing sequence involves the character of Trip Tucker.
Fact 3: Margret Clark decides to make it her own personal crusade to right the wrongs of Rick Berman and Brannon Braga by making choices "from her heart" and saving Trip Tucker.
Already there are 3 main facts that I got just from reading the posts here. So yeah, I can make an opinion about how stupid it was to worry about the Trip Tucker thing without spending 10 bucks of my hard earned money.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
And again (Fact!), everything you've just described amounts to next to nothing in the context of the complete book, which you have (Fact!) already entirely prejudged based on little more than BBS discussion.
And again (Fact!), everything you've just described amounts to next to nothing in the context of the complete book, which you have (Fact!) already entirely prejudged based on little more than BBS discussion.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
For an ass to be kissed, I'd think that someone would have to assume some sort of special position.
Bubba D.
For an ass to be kissed, I'd think that someone would have to assume some sort of special position.
Bubba D.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Outside the main plot. As I noted above, it is possible for a framing sequence to introduce important thematic commentary without being part of the plot; if so, then it's not accurate to say it's "oustide the main body of the story."
That is spin, ma'am, not fact. The fact is that Ms. Clark was of the opinion that Trip's death was poorly handled, and that while she very rarely makes these types of creative decisions, she was of the opinion that his death was poorly-handled enough to warrant coming up with a better explanation AND that it was motivated in part by her love for the character. There is no evidence of any sort of "crusade."
I personally would argue that her former motivation -- Trip's canonical death not making sense -- justifies her latter motivation, and that the revelation of Trip's survival is wholly consistent with the novels' tradition of taking elements from the canon that make no sense and using them to weave excellent stories.
Yes, you can. You can, for instance, read the entire novel after borrowing it from a library. Why the insistence on a false choice between reading spoilers and spending money?
Outside the main plot. As I noted above, it is possible for a framing sequence to introduce important thematic commentary without being part of the plot; if so, then it's not accurate to say it's "oustide the main body of the story."
That is spin, ma'am, not fact. The fact is that Ms. Clark was of the opinion that Trip's death was poorly handled, and that while she very rarely makes these types of creative decisions, she was of the opinion that his death was poorly-handled enough to warrant coming up with a better explanation AND that it was motivated in part by her love for the character. There is no evidence of any sort of "crusade."
I personally would argue that her former motivation -- Trip's canonical death not making sense -- justifies her latter motivation, and that the revelation of Trip's survival is wholly consistent with the novels' tradition of taking elements from the canon that make no sense and using them to weave excellent stories.
Yes, you can. You can, for instance, read the entire novel after borrowing it from a library. Why the insistence on a false choice between reading spoilers and spending money?
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
Yeah, because I'm such a delicate flower.
For what it's worth, I'm with Sci. I'd at least read the book before I passed judgment on it, but then again, I'm in the minority of internet users who don't possess clairvoyancy. My bad.
Yeah, because I'm such a delicate flower.
For what it's worth, I'm with Sci. I'd at least read the book before I passed judgment on it, but then again, I'm in the minority of internet users who don't possess clairvoyancy. My bad.
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!
The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it. Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance? Kia Winn, why she's not dead, she was really an agent for the Obsidian Order and Joe Carey of Voyager, he wasn't killed torwards the end of the mission because that wasn't the real Joe Carey, that was a clone sent by the Pakleds to steal the Intrepid class schematics.
The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it. Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance? Kia Winn, why she's not dead, she was really an agent for the Obsidian Order and Joe Carey of Voyager, he wasn't killed torwards the end of the mission because that wasn't the real Joe Carey, that was a clone sent by the Pakleds to steal the Intrepid class schematics.
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