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Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!)

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Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Dayton Ward said:
Piper said:
What you call rude I call direct. If you can't handle the heat then why come to the kitchen in the first place?

Yeah, because I'm such a delicate flower.

For what it's worth, I'm with Sci. I'd at least read the book before I passed judgment on it, but then again, I'm in the minority of internet users who don't possess clairvoyancy. My bad.

I have more than a few of your books on my shelf and I like your work. And maybe if I hadn't already found out that the Trip thing was being handled like this I would have bought LFM, but this whole situation is downright silly and I refuse to spend a dime on it simply because of it.

Edit to add: Sci for the record I'm female, so please don't call me sir.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it.

I don't think that's a fair decision to make unless you've seen it in context. I would recommend borrowing the book from a library, reading it, and then deciding whether or not you wish to purchase the novel.

Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance? Kia Winn, why she's not dead, she was really an agent for the Obsidian Order and Joe Carey of Voyager, he wasn't killed torwards the end of the mission because that wasn't the real Joe Carey, that was a clone sent by the Pakleds to steal the Intrepid class schematics.

Now that is a valid criticism. Indeed, that was my initial reaction, and I don't entirely disagree with it. However, after some thought, I decided that the canonical death of Trip was sufficiently nonsensical to warrant some other explanation, and that Trip's secret survival is a decision that opens up many new and interesting story opportunities that those others you mention would not. Personally, I'm betting that he knows something or has something that somebody wants him dead for -- possibly Section 31? Something that might have shattered the Federation it is earliest stages, perhaps? Hmm. Just a thought. :)
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
Edit to add: Sci for the record I'm female, so please don't call me sir.

My sincere apologies, ma'am. I will go back and edit where appropriate.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
Zane Gray said:
And again (Fact!), everything you've just described amounts to next to nothing in the context of the complete book, which you have (Fact!) already entirely prejudged based on little more than BBS discussion.

The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it. Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance? Kia Winn, why she's not dead, she was really an agent for the Obsidian Order and Joe Carey of Voyager, he wasn't killed torwards the end of the mission because that wasn't the real Joe Carey, that was a clone sent by the Pakleds to steal the Intrepid class schematics.

Ugh... please don't bring Voyager and DS9 into this... :vulcan:
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Zane Gray said:
Piper said:
Zane Gray said:
And again (Fact!), everything you've just described amounts to next to nothing in the context of the complete book, which you have (Fact!) already entirely prejudged based on little more than BBS discussion.

The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it. Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance? Kia Winn, why she's not dead, she was really an agent for the Obsidian Order and Joe Carey of Voyager, he wasn't killed torwards the end of the mission because that wasn't the real Joe Carey, that was a clone sent by the Pakleds to steal the Intrepid class schematics.

Ugh... please don't bring Voyager and DS9 into this... :vulcan:

Alright, but they make one great ship. The love of a starship for her soul mate Cardassian space station. It's Romeo and Juliet all over again. ;)
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
What you call rude I call direct. If you can't handle the heat then why come to the kitchen in the first place?

So yeah, real enough for me.

Piper, if you want heat, you should venture into TNZ.

If you're brave enough. ;)

And if you think that's heat, you need to be around here when Dayton really goes off. Nuclear explosions don't leave that much collateral damage. :devil:
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
Zane Gray said:
Ugh... please don't bring Voyager and DS9 into this... :vulcan:

Alright, but they make one great ship. The love of a starship for her soul mate Cardassian space station. It's Romeo and Juliet all over again. ;)

Good one! :lol:
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it.
Piper, sweetheart? Come here a second.

Closer.

Listen, let me tell you something:

You're an ignorant ninny.

See, if you knew the difference between a book and an internet post, you'd understand that "the Trip Tucker thing" was not, in fact, explained away. The book, in essence, only confuses the question.

Unfortunately, again, you are an ignorant ninny.

(In my opinion, which we're all entitled to.)
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

William Leisner said:
Piper, sweetheart? Come here a second.

Closer.

Listen, let me tell you something:

You're an ignorant ninny.

See, if you knew the difference between a book and an internet post, you'd understand that "the Trip Tucker thing" was not, in fact, explained away. The book, in essence, only confuses the question.

Unfortunately, again, you are an ignorant ninny.

(In my opinion, which we're all entitled to.)

I'm going to officially note here that I think it's equally unfair to react to Piper by engaging in ad hominem attacks upon her. She's making a number of unfair and ill-informed statements, I agree, but I see no good reason to insult her.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

^ I'm just keeping it real, not kissin' ass, bringing the heat to the kitchen, yo.

(And you should know "ninny" was not my first choice of term, either.)
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Zane Gray said:
And Piper... if nothing else, resurrecting Tucker makes good business sense. Like him or not, he was clearly one of the more popular characters with fans of the show. If you're going to launch a successful book line based on the series, it only makes sense to have all your characters available to work with.

Uhh, the book series has six years pre-TATV to play around in, so it's hardly as if it wouldn't have been able to use Trip without this. And even with this retcon, he's still believed dead by the public, so it's not as if he can continue as a regular in any post-TATV books. So that argument doesn't really hold up.


Piper said:
I don't need to read or buy this book to already know what's in it, that's the joy of being here on a messageboard and reading spoilers.

Oy. There is a huge, huge difference between knowing what people say about something and knowing the thing itself. If you don't understand that, you must have a very limited experience of the world. Perhaps because you're too ready to believe what other people tell you about it rather than experiencing it for yourself.


Piper said:
Fact One: The book entitled Last Full Measure has a framing sequence outside of the main body of the story.

Fact 2: This framing sequence involves the character of Trip Tucker.

Fact 3: Margret Clark decides to make it her own personal crusade to right the wrongs of Rick Berman and Brannon Braga by making choices "from her heart" and saving Trip Tucker.

Already there are 3 main facts that I got just from reading the posts here. So yeah, I can make an opinion about how stupid it was to worry about the Trip Tucker thing without spending 10 bucks of my hard earned money.

You're just digging a deeper hole for yourself. Selectively picking out three data points that fit your prejudices and ignoring the dozens more that don't fit them hardly qualifies as having an informed opinion. It qualifies as being a closed-minded, intellectually lazy person who thinks that facts only exist to justify your preconceptions and that rightness is determined by how effectively you can shout down your opposition.

And this may be a cheap shot, but your claim to have an informed opinion would be slightly more credible if you had been aware that the price of Last Full Measure is 7.99, not 10 dollars. But only slightly.

Piper said:
Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance?

Why not have Spock's coffin soft-land on the Genesis planet and have it magically bring him back to life? Why not have a Tasha Yar from an alternate universe end up in our universe? The shows and movies were doing this long before the books did. And this isn't the first time the books have done it either -- remember Shatner bringing Kirk back to life in The Return and quite a few sequels?

Besides, it's a spurious argument, because each case is different. Just because they have that one thing in common -- a character's death -- doesn't mean that everything else about them is identical. Trip's death is different from those other cases, and not just because he was a popular character. It's different because it was only seen in a computer reconstruction after the fact -- which creates an opening for the reality to have been different* -- and because it was extremely implausible and strange in its circumstances -- which practically demands an explanation for that anomaly. If anything, this "resurrection" is far less contrived than Kirk's in the Shatnerverse.

-----
*I'm reminded of Sherlock Holmes' "death" at Reichenbach Falls in "The Final Problem." When Conan Doyle wrote that story, he fully intended it to be Holmes' real, permanent death, because he was sick of the character. But he happened to structure it in such a way that we didn't actually witness Holmes' demise -- Watson just surmised it from the evidence and Holmes' disappearance. That left a perfect opening for Holmes to be brought back a few years later (when Doyle was offered enough money to overcome his reluctance), simply by revealing that he faked his death.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

I'm amazed at the repeat bitching about the structure of the book. I think if people realized how much time and effort goes into getting a novel on the shelf, they'd shut their mouths about stupid shit. Use some brain cells and try discussing the content of the book rather than compain on and on and on about a freaking framing sequence!

What I want to know is if there is any significance with Travis's letters to his mom. The last page of the main story is his second letter. Should we just take them at face value, or is there a hidden agenda here?
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Captain59 said:
Use some brain cells and try discussing the content of the book rather than compain on and on and on about a freaking framing sequence!

I don't mean to be rude, but that's a really ironic comment, given your previous complaint about the book's dedication! ;) I understand that you later changed your mind; my only point is that everyone says foolish things at some point, so let's try to be a bit more generous to Piper. :)
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

^ Yours wasn't a rude comment, and it sure is ironic. But I didn't beat a dead horse about it, and I actually read the dedication to then comment on it. Even if I didn't change my mind, I wouldn't have gone on and on about it. Plus, I wrote that initial post on raw, energized emotion. I calmed down minutes later. What's goin on here is ridiculous...IMO.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Captain59 said:
^ Yours wasn't a rude comment, and it sure is ironic. But I didn't beat a dead horse about it, and I actually read the dedication to then comment on it. Even if I didn't change my mind, I wouldn't have gone on and on about it. Plus, I wrote that initial post on raw, energized emotion. I calmed down minutes later.

Good points, those.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

William Leisner said:
Piper said:
The fact that they had to take the times to explain away the Trip Tucker thing is enough for me not to buy it.
Piper, sweetheart? Come here a second.

Closer.

Listen, let me tell you something:

You're an ignorant ninny.

See, if you knew the difference between a book and an internet post, you'd understand that "the Trip Tucker thing" was not, in fact, explained away. The book, in essence, only confuses the question.

Unfortunately, again, you are an ignorant ninny.

(In my opinion, which we're all entitled to.)

Woohoo! A ninny!? What? How dare you call m-....I think I'm more insulted that someone used such a gay insult. Just goes to prove sweetheart that you don't get laid very often, or do you? But make sure and tell your right hand we all said hello. ;)
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Christopher said:
Zane Gray said:
And Piper... if nothing else, resurrecting Tucker makes good business sense. Like him or not, he was clearly one of the more popular characters with fans of the show. If you're going to launch a successful book line based on the series, it only makes sense to have all your characters available to work with.

Uhh, the book series has six years pre-TATV to play around in, so it's hardly as if it wouldn't have been able to use Trip without this. And even with this retcon, he's still believed dead by the public, so it's not as if he can continue as a regular in any post-TATV books. So that argument doesn't really hold up.


Piper said:
I don't need to read or buy this book to already know what's in it, that's the joy of being here on a messageboard and reading spoilers.

Oy. There is a huge, huge difference between knowing what people say about something and knowing the thing itself. If you don't understand that, you must have a very limited experience of the world. Perhaps because you're too ready to believe what other people tell you about it rather than experiencing it for yourself.


Piper said:
Fact One: The book entitled Last Full Measure has a framing sequence outside of the main body of the story.

Fact 2: This framing sequence involves the character of Trip Tucker.

Fact 3: Margret Clark decides to make it her own personal crusade to right the wrongs of Rick Berman and Brannon Braga by making choices "from her heart" and saving Trip Tucker.

Already there are 3 main facts that I got just from reading the posts here. So yeah, I can make an opinion about how stupid it was to worry about the Trip Tucker thing without spending 10 bucks of my hard earned money.

You're just digging a deeper hole for yourself. Selectively picking out three data points that fit your prejudices and ignoring the dozens more that don't fit them hardly qualifies as having an informed opinion. It qualifies as being a closed-minded, intellectually lazy person who thinks that facts only exist to justify your preconceptions and that rightness is determined by how effectively you can shout down your opposition.

And this may be a cheap shot, but your claim to have an informed opinion would be slightly more credible if you had been aware that the price of Last Full Measure is 7.99, not 10 dollars. But only slightly.

Piper said:
Why not have framing sequences where Data and Jadzia Dax arent't dead but really somewhere on Risa playing poker? I know, why not write one where Tora Ziyal is really in hiding because she's the queen of all Bajor? Hell, why not use the novels to explain away all the unwanted deaths we've ever had in Trek's 40 years of existance?

Why not have Spock's coffin soft-land on the Genesis planet and have it magically bring him back to life? Why not have a Tasha Yar from an alternate universe end up in our universe? The shows and movies were doing this long before the books did. And this isn't the first time the books have done it either -- remember Shatner bringing Kirk back to life in The Return and quite a few sequels?

Besides, it's a spurious argument, because each case is different. Just because they have that one thing in common -- a character's death -- doesn't mean that everything else about them is identical. Trip's death is different from those other cases, and not just because he was a popular character. It's different because it was only seen in a computer reconstruction after the fact -- which creates an opening for the reality to have been different* -- and because it was extremely implausible and strange in its circumstances -- which practically demands an explanation for that anomaly. If anything, this "resurrection" is far less contrived than Kirk's in the Shatnerverse.

-----
*I'm reminded of Sherlock Holmes' "death" at Reichenbach Falls in "The Final Problem." When Conan Doyle wrote that story, he fully intended it to be Holmes' real, permanent death, because he was sick of the character. But he happened to structure it in such a way that we didn't actually witness Holmes' demise -- Watson just surmised it from the evidence and Holmes' disappearance. That left a perfect opening for Holmes to be brought back a few years later (when Doyle was offered enough money to overcome his reluctance), simply by revealing that he faked his death.

Ok, I knew the price of the book but rounded it, sorry for being as you call lazy. Seems to me I'm as lazy as the work you did for your last Titan novel. And second I never once insulted anyone like I've been here tonight, but hey, doesn't bother me when a bunch of internet geeks gang up on a girl because she speaks out against your boss. We can go all night long but I and many many many others think this was a stupid idea.

Boo hoo Trip is dead and we the great gate keepers of Trek fiction must fix it! What the hell ever.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Piper said:
If this was such a good idea I would love to hear from the other authors and editors that frequent this board and know how they think.

You want thoughts? :vulcan:

Well, for the record, both Mike and I agree that TATV was an abomination and a storytelling nightmare. A better script could have been pounded out by three syphlitic monkeys with typewriters, and I've overheard conversations by crackheads on the street that made more sense. :devil:

We were both elated to get a chance to show how some of the obviously sloppy storytelling could be fixed with our framing sequence. When not only the actors and fans, but even the producers who worked on it have discussed that the last episode was a mistake and should have been done better... we're happy to start the road to better.

And BTW, your comments about Margaret verge on personal attacks. Margaret cares about Star Trek incredibly deeply, as do all the Trek editors, and we as fans should be grateful to have people THAT invested in the properties in control. Had Berman and Braga cared as much as Margaret, Marco, and Keith care about the stories and characters -- instead of as much as B&B cared about the "franchise" and $$$ -- we might have had great Trek in Enterprise all of the time instead of some of it.

Piper - you're free to disagree with the CONCEPT of Trip not being dead, but until you've read it, you cannot make ANY coherent comment about what it means to the book. And understanding FULLY what the framing sequence actually means would require knowing what is coming in the future for ENT stories. :angel:

All that said, as many others have pointed out, if you don't like the framing sequence, don't read it. While there are thematic elements -- and a deeper understanding of some story elements -- to be had by reading the framing sequence, the bulk of the book can stand apart from the framing sequence just fine.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

Times like this, I start to really give a second look to those ENT ideas I socked away, just to see whether or not I really want to try to sell them in this environment.
 
Re: Last Full Measure Discussion and Review (MAJOR SPOILERS!

^^Hopefully, you and other writers won't be dissuaded from pursuing interesting ENT ideas because of the tone of the most recent discussion. Prior to this point, I think the majority of comments in this thread had been positive (or at least expressing curiosity) about the possibilities arising from the LFM framing sequence -- and their possible impact on the Relaunch.


^^^Well said, Andy Mangels.
 
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