Lack of LGBT characters and the "magic bullet"

[JB2005]

You mean like this guy?

Again, that's different. Captain Jack is a badass.

And yet, a likeable character. Although I am not fluent in "Whovinese", I do like Capt. Jack but to have his "Bisexualism" routed into him being purely a homosexual actually pisses me off that this is a "step" for Homosexuals trying to be accepted in mainstream.

Eh? Sorry I don't quite follow what you're saying...

 

[ColeMercury]

Again, that's different. Captain Jack is a badass.

And yet, a likeable character. Although I am not fluent in "Whovinese", I do like Capt. Jack but to have his "Bisexualism" routed into him being purely a homosexual actually pisses me off that this is a "step" for Homosexuals trying to be accepted in mainstream.

Eh? Sorry I don't quite follow what you're saying...

Me neither.

(In case it wasn't clear, calling Captain Jack a badass was a compliment. Plus a way of pointing out he's not merely a male Lwaxana.)

 

[LaBarre]

This looks bad, ColeMercury, but I'm not sure that the impression your post has given is what you actually intended. Benefit of the doubt, but awaiting your clarification.

Just out of interest, what did you think I meant?

I didn't know what you meant, hence my post.

Reading further through the thread, I think it's critical that we refrain from the temptation to retrofit our current western behavioral expectations on earlier times.

History teaches us that tolerance is an incremental process.

I think that Star Trek holds up quite well.

 

[Paradon]

If they did put a gay character on ST, I hope it's not because the producers want to prove something for some reasons; and that it will be meaningful and have a lot of depth with good taste, instead...not the usual stereotypical garbage, like, we see on other shows.

 

[LaBarre]

I don't think gay people are oppressed.... some people may not agree with them, but they're not going to kill them. People, who hate gay people with a passion and kill them, are probably gay themselves, but can't admit it to themselves. Religious people don't agree with gay people, but they don't oppress gay people.

Yes. Thank you for this post.

Thailand today is still recovering from its involuntary (albeit unintended) role as repository for everything toxic from the US engagement in the Vietnam War.

It's the poster boy for collateral damage writ large. Thailand actually believed our bullshit about democracy and our determination to fight for it.

Throughout the war it became the cesspool for US soldiers wanting to chill. It has paid a very heavy toll ever since, particularly since we left them high and dry to face the monsters who emerged on their borders in Cambodia and Vietnam, and then left them to deal with the human detritus swept into their homeland as a result.

The end of western engagement did not mean the end of the war for Thailand. No, what it meant was that the Thais inherited even more of our Western scum on top of their own scum using and abusing little girls and boys, sometimes willingly provided from families in the north east, desperate to escape from the poorest of the poorest region of the country.

And then once the war was officially declared to be over, we provided new routes for killer drugs to our shores via Thai routes.

Used and abused and abandoned. That's what we did to the Thais over a 20 year period.

And then we gave them AIDS.

So, let's not all get on our moral high horse about Thailand and its unwillingness to permit gay marriage in written law, even though in practice Thailand is and always has been one of the few tolerant societies for LGBT people.

Instead, let us spare a moment - just one - to think about how we might work to change the FACT of all the little ones being damaged NOW as they have been for at least 30 years on any Thai beach resort you care to think of - these all to real victims of sexual predators from Sweden, UK, Australia, USA, etc.

Let's deal with the damage we caused first and then by all means let's pontificate about all those other things we find fault with in another country.

 

[LaBarre]

You know nothing of Thailand...! People over there do not hate gay and transgenders, or other people for that matter. A lot of people here and in other western countries fly to Thailand for sex-changed operations.... They are possibly the most laid back people in the world. They pride themselves on being a peaceful and tolerant nation. It's not like how they portray aliens on "Enterprise"! My cousin's son is trans-sexual and he's happy living over there. I've never heard of gay people and transvestites getting killed over there.

Apologies all. THIS was the Paradon post that mine above was responding to.

 

[Sci]

So, let's not all get on our moral high horse about Thailand and its unwillingness to permit gay marriage in written law,

Who's getting on a high horse? I'm condemning the United States for the same damn reason. Hell, in my home state, as I've said before, my LGBT friends and family are denied the right to marry, and goodness knows they're often afraid to so much as hold hands for fear of being beaten up. I'm not singling Thailand out -- I've made it very clear through this thread that there is no culture on this planet where LGBTs are not oppressed in some manner. I'm not singling out Thailand for this, I'm saying that anyone who claims that this is not the case in Thailand is wrong. This doesn't make Thailand worse than any other country -- it just means that it's no better than the rest of us.

Every country oppresses LGBTs in some way, either through its governmental structures or through a heterosexist culture in which, at minimum, being LGBT is seen as a less-valid status than being straight, and no country should be given a free pass for it.

 

[Paradon]

This gay thing is really strange for a lot of people and certain groups of people. That's the truth. It's hard to understand how they feel when you actually not gay yourself. Acting out and do things, like, doing drugs, having a party and orgy all night to get people's attention and approval is not the best way to do go. People already think gays are strange, and they are...but in a good way. All good things take time and patience; you can't just rush into things head strong.

Just like vampires on "True Blood".... [laugh] They are very scary and quite frankly if they wanted to, they can kill people and get away with it. People have good reasons to be afraid.... But if they keep threatening people and act like they are superior to humans, then not a lot of people will accept them into our society.

 

[Sci]

This gay thing is really strange for a lot of people and certain groups of people. That's the truth. It's hard to understand how they feel when you actually not gay yourself.

I think it's easy: Just imagine if you weren't allowed to marry the person you wanted to marry because it was straight marriage was banned. Just imagine if you were afraid to hold hands. Just imagine if you had to constantly worry about doing anything to reveal to anyone that you were straight for fear that you might suffer stereotypes, harassment, or assault.

Just imagine if there was intense social pressure not to be heterosexual.

Acting out and do things, like, doing drugs, having a party and orgy all night to get people's attention and approval is not the best way to do go.

This is an act of stereotyping. Few LGBTs are like this.

 

[Paradon]

I don't think marriage is a right.... It's a privilege. This means they can take it away from you if you are trying to use marriage as a way to commit fraud or defrauding someone. For example, people can marry someone in another country to bring them over here even though they're really not in love. If you want to get a marriage license, you can go to another states that allows it. The federal government should stay out of this and not pass laws for or against this issue and leave it to each state to decide what to do with this....

Contrary to your statement, I think most people that are well behaved would rather stay in the closet. lol I know some gay people who told me this. One of them was sister's friend and roommate during college....

 

[Paradon]

In some states...I think, they do allow same sex couple to live together with the same benefits which regular couples get with the exception of them having a marriage license. Really, marriage license is just a piece of paper that allows your partner to get half of what you own in case of a divorce. I hear a lot of people say: divorce is nightmare. A lot of gay people rather just live together, having the same benefits as regular couples, and then take whatever that's theirs after the split (in case they decide to split). No headaches involved!

 

[Sci]

I don't think marriage is a right.... It's a privilege.

In the United States, the Supreme Court found that it is a right. And even if it is not, why should one group get to marry and not another? That's inequality before the law. That's oppression.

Contrary to your statement, I think most people that are well behaved would rather stay in the closet.

You say incredibly bigoted things, and you expect anyone to take your argument that LGBTs aren't oppressed seriously?

 

[ColeMercury]

This gay thing is really strange for a lot of people and certain groups of people. That's the truth. It's hard to understand how they feel when you actually not gay yourself. Acting out and do things, like, doing drugs, having a party and orgy all night to get people's attention and approval is not the best way to do go. People already think gays are strange, and they are...but in a good way. All good things take time and patience; you can't just rush into things head strong.

Okay, three things:

1. That's a stereotype, and a damaging one too. It's born out of last century's underground gay culture -- when something is taboo or even illegal it's nearly inevitable that the tales which get spread the furthest are about the most extreme shit, because they reinforce the mentality of "this is taboo and illegal for a reason". Most gays, bisexuals etc. don't do drugs and have all-night parties/orgies. I know I sure don't.

2. People don't "do things, like, doing drugs, having a party and orgy all night to get people's attention and approval". They do drugs and have all-night parties and orgies because they like doing drugs and having all-night parties and orgies. And incidentally, that particular subculture is definitely not limited to non-straights -- just listen to about 90% of pop music from the last decade, and you'll notice a definite similarity in the subject matter.

3. The expression is "rush into things headlong". The word "headstrong" means "stubborn".

Contrary to your statement, I think most people that are well behaved would rather stay in the closet. lol I know some gay people who told me this. One of them was sister's friend and roommate during college....

Yeah, I'll admit the closet can get really comfortable. I've found that in many cases I find it much easier to socialise with other guys before coming out to them than after -- afterwards I tend to self-censor a lot, and get overly worried that they might take something I say the wrong way.

But "the closet" really is an appropriate metaphor: it's a lot like being inside a closet. You can feel safe in there, and you can even get comfortable -- but the whole world is hidden from you, and you can't move.

And if all you know of the outside world is that gays are a bunch of deviant drug-addicts who have all-night parties and orgies all the time, well, no wonder you'd be terrified of coming out and saying you're one of them.

 

[Kaziarl]

Not sure how to put this, but I'm going to try. I apologize if it's confusing...

I do not have a problem with people who are gay or anything like that. They are just people, and I've even had my share of gay friends whom were actually really cool people. But just like I don't really want to hear my straight buddies talk about what they did to their girlfriend the night before, I don't really want to hear about what the gay ones did to their boyfriend either.

It's the same with tv. If a character is gay, then so be it. But most gay characters these days practically jump around on screen shouting "LOOK AT ME! I'M GAY!" and while I know it's not the case, to me that just sets an example of gays as being annoying idiots.

Star Trek has always shown people as just people. They have their differences, unique cultures, but they are still just like anyone else. They were all equal. Even the aliens were just like everyones else in most cases. So no, I would not like to see the "LOOK AT ME! I'M GAY!" method of how they portray it. That kind of attention seeking would, in my opinion, cheapen the attempt to show them as equal as anyone else.

 

[Paradon]

I think people should be able to do whatever they want.... They have the rights to pursue their own believes and happiness, but they got no rights to force me to accept it. So, yes, you are correct, Sci! There should be no laws prohibiting gays from doing whatever they want because it's unconstitutional.... The Constitutions allows people to pursue their own happiness and protect their rights, freedom, and liberty (liberty meaning minority). But, like I said: they have no rights to forced their believes on me, or other people for that matter.

 

[Sci]

I think people should be able to do whatever they want.... They have the rights to pursue their own believes and happiness, but they got no rights to force me to accept it. So, yes, you are correct, Sci! There should be no laws prohibiting gays from doing whatever they want because it's unconstitutional.... The Constitutions allows people to pursue their own happiness and protect their rights, freedom, and liberty (liberty meaning minority). But, like I said: they have no rights to forced their believes on me, or other people for that matter.

No one is forcing their beliefs on you or anyone else.

 

[ColeMercury]

It's the same with tv. If a character is gay, then so be it. But most gay characters these days practically jump around on screen shouting "LOOK AT ME! I'M GAY!" and while I know it's not the case, to me that just sets an example of gays as being annoying idiots.

Star Trek has always shown people as just people. They have their differences, unique cultures, but they are still just like anyone else. They were all equal. Even the aliens were just like everyones else in most cases. So no, I would not like to see the "LOOK AT ME! I'M GAY!" method of how they portray it. That kind of attention seeking would, in my opinion, cheapen the attempt to show them as equal as anyone else.

At what point, to you, does it become "LOOK AT ME! I'M GAY!"?

Sex scenes? There have been a few of those on Star Trek between straight couples, although almost always implied only.

Kissing scenes? Plenty of those.

What about flirting? Asking another character on a date? Talking with a friend about someone they're attracted to? Introducing their boyfriend or girlfriend to someone? All have happened on Star Trek before.

So where do you draw the line? How much is too much?

 

[Paradon]

What I'm trying to say is: just because nobody agrees with you doesn't mean you have to overact or resort to a more aggressive measure. If someone yelled at you or say something he shouldn't say to you, it doesn't mean you have to hit him in face with a baseball bat, or vandalize his house. That's being very impulsive. That's what got us into the war after 9/11 with Iraq and later in Afghanistan....

 

[Kaziarl]

The fade to black sex scenes that trek does, the few pecks here and there, the casual conversations, flirting, and introductions, that's all fine.

Good ol' Captain Jack from DocWho for example was fine. Yeah he was gay, or rather bi, but it was just a part of who he was. It wasn't all of who he was.

And I'm sorry, I can't really think of any good examples of over the top in my opinion outside of comedy, and those are pretty much supposed to be over the top. South Park's Big Gay Al comes to mind.

But in any case, my point wasn't to draw a line exactly, just to say that if trek were to have a gay character that it would simply be one part of who they are and not the defining quality of the character. To me gay or straight is no different then black or white, or tall over short.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It seems like a LGBT character would have a weird balancing act to do on a Trek series.

Inn order to show the character is gay, they either have to say something about their sexuality, or visually show it in an obvious way, like a heterosexual would.

But do that and ultimately that's gonna be interpreted bysome as being thrown in our faces.

I agree in part with Paradon- There are more things to worry about (or be thankful for) than to worry about who's on TV, which would probably drive you crazy in the long run.

But, on the other hand, TV does have a BIG influence on people, far and wide.

Some people, communities etc, have some serious real life issues, and don't have the luxury to not worry certain things...