Lack of LGBT characters and the "magic bullet"

[sonak]

Why is it different for a gay character than it is for an Asian/Black/Female, whatever character?

It all comes back to the capability of the writers'. Star Trek has always been absolutely cringe-worthy when dealing with sex, the sophistication has always been on the level of Animal House.

Even The Original Series had those 'roll-eye' moments when featuring Uhura from "Captain, I'm frightened" to the line from 'The Savage Curtain' about her being a "charming negress"

Berman and Braga were like teenage boys when dealing with sexuality. I could see it now... "Heh-heh, like that dude is gonna kiss that other dude. Heh-heh.".

And Star Trek 2009 did no better handling the romance between Spock and Uhura.

So find some capable writers then we'll talk.

while I agree with your overall point (but remember that it's supposed to be Lincoln from the NINETEENTH CENTURY saying that line), I don't think the reason 42% said they didn't want a gay character was because they thought Trek writers couldn't handle the issue well.

IF that had been the case then I'd agree it wasn't homophobia.

 

[King Bob!]

IF that had been the case then I'd agree it wasn't homophobia.

I'm sure that there is a sizable portion of that 42% that is homophobic but to state that all 42% are that way because it's not the answer you want is wrong.

 

[T'Girl]

Gay character in next Star Trek movie or TV series?

Split decision, I can see "them" not placing a gay character in the next move, partially because they would likely screw it up, also because given the brevity of a movie (about two hours) the dialog would have to overtly announce that the character was gay. Or there would be a scene similar to Kirk and Gaila making out. The next Star Trek movie will be a action/adventure movie, not a introspective social drama. I would prefer that there were no new gay hero, and certainly not a gay villain.

On the other hand it's near impossible to envision a new series without a gay character. At least from my 23 year old gay point of view.

There has been some mention of "young male homophobes," while it depend on what you mean by "young," to my experience teenage and early/mid twenties males are far less homophobic than their male elders. If this and these were your target demographic, then not only would one or more gay characters be acceptable, but would really be a requirement for the show to be generally attractive within this group. Nor would the show have to be careful how the gay was presented, as far as the younger group would be concerned just trot them out

There would likely be, for the late twenties through mid-thirties male demographic, still either some level of approval or just basic indifference (what's to big deal). only with older viewers would there be a problem with gay inclusion.

 

[Sci]

Correction, Sisko wasn't the "Black Captain" up until ....

Oh, give me a frickin' break. So the guy knows his heritage. He knows history. ... And that somehow makes him "very racist"?

So then I can be bigoted against Muslims because they invaded my ancestral village in southern Portugal in the eighth century?

Please, Sisko "position" on this matter is side by side with Stile's hatred of the Romulans in Balance of Terror, and at least Stine was channeling something from only one century back, not Sisko's four and a half centuries.

When exactly in Sisko's mind did caucasians become them.

Not once does Sisko express any distaste for or dislike of European-Americans in "Bada Bing, Bada Bang." Sisko is objecting to a dishonest portrayal of race relations at that point in history. He never says or implies that he has any problem with white people.

 

[T'Girl]

^^^^^

Okay, Sisko (and Kasity too) is the only Human character that I can remember that strongly identifies with a race. Certainly the only Starfleet member to do so. We've seen many who have identified with a ethnic, national or cultural group, but not with a racial group. Except Sisko. I don't recall Uhura or LaForge ever referring to themselves as Sisko did. O'Brien was Irish, but never white. Keiko embraced the Japanese culture, but never referred to the Japanese as a distinctive racial group. From TOS and other series we know that Klingons come in different colors, no mention is made of race by Worf or others. Troi is only a Betazed. Vulcans obviously have multiple races too, while Tuvok married within his race, there no dialog where he openly considers himself anything but Vulcan.

Picard and Riker never once shared a conversation where they referred solely to Caucasians and their historical experiences with numerous US's and WE's. They both seemly consider themselves Humans only, not white Humans.

But we have a scene where Sisko does just that, by way of Sisko's own word, he thinks of himself as a black Human. Not as a Human only. And for that reason only is why I refer to him in this episode as a racist.

Don't try to invoke Roddenberry to me ...

I realize Star Trek wasn't the man's personal property, but does anyone think the dialog in the scene in question would have been written by him, or gotten pass him while he was in a position of control?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

^^^^^

Okay, Sisko (and Kasity too) is the only Human character that I can remember that strongly identifies with a race.

"In Russia.."

 

[sonak]

Yeah, as previous poster pointed out, identifying with ethnic background is common enough.


Of course if you arbitrarily define race as narrowly as you want to and exclude nationality, ethnicity, culture, etc. so that your argument works, you can make statements like "Sisko and Kasidy are the only ones to identify with their race," because you've excluded any category which would undercut your point.

 

[JB2005]

^ Picards occassional jingoism in Season 1 never fails to make me laugh!

 

[Sci]

^^^^^

Okay, Sisko (and Kasity too) is the only Human character that I can remember that strongly identifies with a race.

Nonsense, we've seen plenty of other characters who strongly identified with and were proud of their heritage. So it's okay for Picard to strongly identify with his heritage as a Frenchman, and it's okay for Chekov to strongly identify with his heritage as a Russian, and it's okay for Scotty to strongly identify with his heritage as a Scot, and it's okay for O'Brien to strongly identify with his heritage as an Irishman, and it's okay for Chakotay to strongly identify with his heritage as a Native American -- but because Sisko strongly identifies with his heritage as an African American, that's a problem?

You're applying an inconsistent standard.

We've seen many who have identified with a ethnic, national or cultural group, but not with a racial group.

Those groupings are all culturally-designated groupings, though. Why is it okay to be proud of one's "national" heritage as a Frenchman but not of one's "racial" heritage as an African American?

Except Sisko. I don't recall Uhura or LaForge ever referring to themselves as Sisko did.

Neither of them were African American. Uhura and LaForge were both African, period (even if they were played by actors with American accents).

O'Brien was Irish, but never white.

You do realize that a few generations ago, "Irish" or "English" played the same "in-group, out-group, oppress one and privilege another" role that "race" plays in America?

Besides, it's not clear how Sisko conceptualizes his African American identity. You're viewing it through a "racial" lens, certainly, but it's just as probable that Sisko conceptualizes "African American-ness" as a matter of cultural heritage rather than "race." It's never established canonically how he conceptualizes the idea of African American identity.

From TOS and other series we know that Klingons come in different colors, no mention is made of race by Worf or others. Troi is only a Betazed. Vulcans obviously have multiple races too, while Tuvok married within his race, there no dialog where he openly considers himself anything but Vulcan.

Actually, it's not clear that any of those species have the idea of "race" in their culture. "Race" is a folk taxonomy with no basis in biology. Here in America, we think of "race" in terms of skin color (of which there are certainly varying skin tones amongst those species), but other cultures conceptualize "race" in very different ways. Irish is a perfect example -- I had a Sociology professor in college who talked about how, when he lived in Ireland, your "race" was a matter of whether you were Protestant or Catholic, and how he would hear people talking about "Catholic noses" or "Protestant noses," for instance.

So, once again, while we've seen Sisko demonstrate pride in and identification with an African American identity, we don't know if he conceptualizes that identity in the manner you're asserting (i.e., as a "race," with "race" being defined in terms of skin color as per traditional American ideas of "race").

Picard and Riker never once shared a conversation where they referred solely to Caucasians and their historical experiences with numerous US's and WE's. They both seemly consider themselves Humans only, not white Humans.

Bullshit. Picard considers him a French Human. Riker considers himself an Alaskan Human. Neither one of them imagines themselves as some sort of "generic" Human.

But we have a scene where Sisko does just that, by way of Sisko's own word, he thinks of himself as a black Human. Not as a Human only. And for that reason only is why I refer to him in this episode as a racist.

Also bullshit. That's not racism. The fact that he identifies with and is proud of a specific cultural heritage within his Human heritage does not mean that he does not also identify with a larger Human heritage, nor does it mean he views his heritage group as being superior to others.

Anti-Racism does not mean pretending that "race" does not exist as a culturally-defined grouping, or that different cultures do not exist. It means being committed to equality, nothing to "color-blindedness."

Don't try to invoke Roddenberry to me ...

I realize Star Trek wasn't the man's personal property, but does anyone think the dialog in the scene in question would have been written by him, or gotten pass him while he was in a position of control?

Why not? Roddenberry had Uhura hear the word "Negress" and react simply by saying that in her era, they had learned not to fear words. Surely in the 24th Century, Humans have learned not to fear different forms of cultural pride, too.

 

[USS Triumphant]

When exactly in Sisko's mind did caucasians become them.

Well who exactly do you think Sisko is bitching about to Kasidy? The city of Las Vegas is a inanimate object, Sisko is complaining about caucasians.

Did it occur to you that he might have been bitching not about caucasians, but about the authors of holodeck scenarios like that?

I'm not a Native American, but I'd get pretty annoyed about a movie that portrayed Gen. George Custer as a hero. (And Disney's Pocahontas irritates me a great deal.) I don't have a very thorough knowledge about what specifically would have been wrong with Vic Fontaine's scenario - and I do imagine that Sisko, knowing his own heritage, might have a better grasp of that than I do - but if something was really wrong with it and he knew it, I can see plenty of reason for him to be annoyed with it without him being racist. He could have been pissed about from the perspective of a historian who is annoyed with inaccuracy. Or he could have just been irritated with the disrespect that he felt that such a portrayal was showing to the people who went through past racism and violence.

 

[ColeMercury]

Did it occur to you that he might have been bitching not about caucasians, but about the authors of holodeck scenarios like that?

I'm not a Native American, but I'd get pretty annoyed about a movie that portrayed Gen. George Custer as a hero. (And Disney's Pocahontas irritates me a great deal.) I don't have a very thorough knowledge about what specifically would have been wrong with Vic Fontaine's scenario - and I do imagine that Sisko, knowing his own heritage, might have a better grasp of that than I do - but if something was really wrong with it and he knew it, I can see plenty of reason for him to be annoyed with it without him being racist. He could have been pissed about from the perspective of a historian who is annoyed with inaccuracy. Or he could have just been irritated with the disrespect that he felt that such a portrayal was showing to the people who went through past racism and violence.

Not only that, but as I said before -- Benny Russell. Sisko was not only familiar with the history of that time period, he'd lived it in a vision from the Prophets. Is it any wonder he might especially identify with black Americans of the mid-20th Century, and be especially pissed off about whitewashing the history of the period?

 

[Sci]

Did it occur to you that he might have been bitching not about caucasians, but about the authors of holodeck scenarios like that?

I'm not a Native American, but I'd get pretty annoyed about a movie that portrayed Gen. George Custer as a hero. (And Disney's Pocahontas irritates me a great deal.) I don't have a very thorough knowledge about what specifically would have been wrong with Vic Fontaine's scenario - and I do imagine that Sisko, knowing his own heritage, might have a better grasp of that than I do - but if something was really wrong with it and he knew it, I can see plenty of reason for him to be annoyed with it without him being racist. He could have been pissed about from the perspective of a historian who is annoyed with inaccuracy. Or he could have just been irritated with the disrespect that he felt that such a portrayal was showing to the people who went through past racism and violence.

Not only that, but as I said before -- Benny Russell. Sisko was not only familiar with the history of that time period, he'd lived it in a vision from the Prophets. Is it any wonder he might especially identify with black Americans of the mid-20th Century, and be especially pissed off about whitewashing the history of the period?

And not just that, but even setting that aside -- why shouldn't he be pissed off at the "Caucasians" who perpetrated institutional racism? There's nothing wrong with that or racist about that. Being angry at the specific European Americans who perpetuate(d) racism is not the same thing as hating or being bigoted against white people in general.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Trek is fail for gay characters because they didn't even take the easy way out and make them alien. In DS9 a Bolian is mentioned as having a "co-husband". We don't know anything about Bolian family life but it would have been cool if we had seen a couple male Bolians canoodling on the Promenade.

 

[DevilEyes]

Trek is fail for gay characters because they didn't even take the easy way out and make them alien. In DS9 a Bolian is mentioned as having a "co-husband". We don't know anything about Bolian family life but it would have been cool if we had seen a couple male Bolians canoodling on the Promenade.

I'm afraid I don't believe it was a reference to a homosexual marriage, just to polygamy - or else the Bolian would have been said to have had a "husband" rather than a wife and "co-husband". The latter seems to simply imply that his wife has two husbands, which is no more LBGT than a Mormon having more than one wife.

 

[Sci]

Trek is fail for gay characters because they didn't even take the easy way out and make them alien. In DS9 a Bolian is mentioned as having a "co-husband". We don't know anything about Bolian family life but it would have been cool if we had seen a couple male Bolians canoodling on the Promenade.

I'm afraid I don't believe it was a reference to a homosexual marriage, just to polygamy - or else the Bolian would have been said to have had a "husband" rather than a wife and "co-husband". The latter seems to simply imply that his wife has two husbands, which is no more LBGT than a Mormon having more than one wife.

Who's to say that Bolians aren't all bisexual and that a co-husband is not as much a sexual partner as the wife?

 

[Paradon]

Maybe they should make a more humorous and lighter take on each character.... Then perhaps introducing things, like, female roles in ST universe and sexual orientation would be easier to do....

Things and personal believes such as race, religions, and sexual orientation have become so absurd, that if you risk offending people on any of these topics, you could possibly get some kind of a death threat. If a man hit his wife (or a woman) because he doesn't respect women, he won't get charge with being sexist, but rather battering or assaulting someone. Every culture has its own prejudice...after all no one knows everything. You can talk about it from a different point of view, but as soon as someone say something that you may not agree with or it may hurt your feelings in some ways, it doesn't mean you should resolve to threatening someone with physical harms. We can talk about it and work out our differences. For example it's insulting for Asians when African Americans talk about nonsense about someone like it's an actual facts, or staring at Asian people in the eyes.... If someone hit someone because he dislike certain things about African American culture, that's not a hate crime....just assault. People like that are shallow, they'll find just about any minor things that are wrong with someone and blow it out of proportion.... No one is perfect and does something that other people don't like or is prejudice in one way or the other, but it's the way you carry yourself and convey the message that is different.... Shallow people tend to do some of the mean things that other people do and worse than other people, probably things other people don't necessarily do. They're not necessarily evil like serial killers, but fighting for the wrong reasons. You shouldn't take what people say so seriously all the time. Are you going to cry and wine all the time when everybody makes fun of you? These things do happen.... Even nice people do make fun of other people on occasion, and they do have basis in reality. There is both sides to every stories, but may be it's not as bad as how the other person is conveying the message. People make jokes to relieve tensions.... There are different angels you can look at things...looking at them from different points of view. You just have to do what you like and stay within the boundaries.

So, yeah! Being humorous do make it easier to make characters like that without being bias. The truth lies somewhere in-between.... Gay people make mistakes, too.... So do other group of people..... It's not whether you're black, white, gay, or Asians.... It's because we are people; that's why we do what we do.....

 

[Nightdiamond]

I'm afraid I don't believe it was a reference to a homosexual marriage, just to polygamy - or else the Bolian would have been said to have had a "husband" rather than a wife and "co-husband". The latter seems to simply imply that his wife has two husbands, which is no more LBGT than a Mormon having more than one wife.

Who's to say that Bolians aren't all bisexual and that a co-husband is not as much a sexual partner as the wife?

It's certainly possible, but I think, based on the context (and Trek's record) it sounded more like a statement about aliens that share wives the way humans share husbands.

I agree that one way to go about it is the comedy route, be honest and open even silly about it.

Like an obviously gay male hitting on Picard and it freaks him out each time-simply because he not gay. And the other crew members rib him about it.

And yet other than that, it would be no big deal, because there's supposed to be no homophobia in human society in the 24th century anyway .

Now, how Worf would react is a totally different (possibly dangerous) idea entirely lol.

 

[LaBarre]

I agree that one way to go about it is the comedy route, be honest and open even silly about it.

Like an obviously gay male hitting on Picard and it freaks him out each time-simply because he not gay. And the other crew members rib him about it.

Q anyone?

I'm not the only one who saw that angle, surely. A whole wealth of slash fic is based on the humourous and not so humourous interactions of Q and Picard as shown tantalisingly throughout the TNG series, operating from this very premise.

Our gaydar caught onto that possibility very, very early on.

 

[ColeMercury]

I agree that one way to go about it is the comedy route, be honest and open even silly about it.

Like an obviously gay male hitting on Picard and it freaks him out each time-simply because he not gay. And the other crew members rib him about it.

"Ha ha ha! What a silly homosexual!" No. Just no.

Now, how Worf would react is a totally different (possibly dangerous) idea entirely lol.

Probably something like in "The Icarus Factor" when Data was annoying him. "With all due respect... BEGONE! ...sir."

 

[Nightdiamond]

I agree that one way to go about it is the comedy route, be honest and open even silly about it.

Like an obviously gay male hitting on Picard and it freaks him out each time-simply because he not gay. And the other crew members rib him about it.

"Ha ha ha! What a silly homosexual!" No. Just no.

No arguments here.

Honestly, I can immediately understand why the idea seems lame, because it would be so easy to twist into that scenario (which is most likely to happen).

In this case, the flirting isn't over the top or "flamboyant" it's normal flirting from an intelligent person.

Lwaxana Troi flirted with Picard (although she was wayyyy over the top), but she had plenty of suitors, and successes elsewhere, and got portrayed in a 3 dimensional way- all right, all right, at least eventually she did.

Now, how Worf would react is a totally different (possibly dangerous) idea entirely lol.

something like in "The Icarus Factor" when Data was annoying him. "With all due respect... BEGONE! ...sir."

It would be amusing just to see someone mess with Worf's mind like that

LaBarre:

Q anyone?

Exactly- because you already know where Q is coming from-characters like him are a lot freer because his sense of humor wasn't as limited as the other characters.