News Kurtzman discusses the Kelvin Timeline appearing on TV

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Red Panda, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Red Panda

    Red Panda Commander Red Shirt

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    TREKCORE: With the upcoming Picard series now set after the destruction of Romulus, how much access with that show’s writers room have to other material from the Star Trek films?

    ALEX KURTZMAN: Well since I wrote the 2009 film, I’m pretty familiar with it – but in terms of like, legality?

    TREKCORE: Yeah, are you allowed to explore the film stuff, rights-wise?

    KURTZMAN: I think we’ll see over the next couple of months. It’s a conversation. Obviously, it would be great; it’s all canon, right? So it’d be great to figure out a way to be consistent.
    http://trekcore.com/blog/2019/01/kurtzman-kadin-picard-georgiou-shows-star-trek-discovery-season-3/
     
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  2. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    How dare he!? How dare he acknowledge the 2009 film as canon!?

    Kurtzman is supposed to be a Star Trek hater with no respect for what came before!? This shall not stand!!!!

    /s
     
  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What would be the point? They've reimagined the Prime universe so much and made it so similar there's not much point in crossing into the Kelvin realm from Discovery. They won't get the Kelvin actors so what's the point?
     
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  4. M'Sharak

    M'Sharak Definitely Herbert. Maybe. Moderator

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    I just read recently that an important factor for the character of Picard in this series is going to be the abrupt removal of the Romulans as a major power and what effect that will come to have on Picard's perspective on everything else. One of the things mentioned in the piece was that Picard won't have any knowledge concerning Spock's fate; he'll only know that Spock has not been found since the destruction of Romulus — he's just gone.

    Seems that it would be difficult, given that as a premise, to have the Kelvin timeline be any kind of an influence at all on stories occurring in the context of the Picard series. No one ought to have any notion that a specific "Kelvin timeline" even exists.
     
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  5. Red Panda

    Red Panda Commander Red Shirt

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    Why wouldn't they?
     
  6. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    They've recast everyone thus far. And the Kelvin actors cost more. More than Paramount Pictures are willing to pay...
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    What's the harm?
     
  8. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/18/in...iou-at-star-trek-discovery-season-2-premiere/

    With J.J. Abrams’ contract with Paramount ending and a possible CBS-Paramount merger, would you be interested in going back and “owning” the movie franchise as well?
    Kurtzman: We haven’t had any conversations about that. I loved making those films. I loved it, and I think Star Trek is still so relevant, I think, in all platforms. So the movies brought a new vitality to the franchise in 2009, and the movie that Justin did was so great, Beyond was so great. I’d be really curious to see what the new version of a Star Trek movie would be, because I think it has to be something different now. I think that the movies we made were perfect for the time that we made them in. And now, things have changed, the world has changed, ideals have changed, and so the question would be, ‘How do you make it worth going to the movies for?’ Because the truth is, that you can get a pretty cinematic experience by watching Star Trek: Discovery, and you’re going to be able to get the same thing watching anything else. What might help is that when people see it on the big screen tonight, they’ll recognize that the line between movies and television’s really over. So I would approach it more from the point of view of what kinds of stories can’t we tell on television that are better for the screen.

    Would you want to see the movies and the TV shows sync up?
    Kadin: I think the dream is always when you’re working on a franchise to have everything play in the same universe. I mean especially for fans, who’ve been fans forever, of this franchise, I think it would only be a better experience for everybody.

    Kurtzman: Obviously they have in the past. So the trick is, how do you not cannibalize each other – and maintain the television version and the movie version and if they do cross over, have that be a special event that feels worth going to the theater for. But look, I think anything’s possible is the short answer to your question.​

    Nice try, Kadin, but I disagree.
    I think that, in this case, it isn't the movies that should feature discovery's reality (thus prime trek) but really, recent TV trek should've been (honestly) set in the kelvin timeline since the start since it was more or less created using these movies and their success as inspiration. Would they even make discovery if JJ hadn't renewed an interest in trek through the movies? Come on, you got Kurtzman of all the people. You want to be that trek without having the full permission to be it.

    And yes, fans might like to have everything in the same universe but I, for one, also love new stories, good storytelling and consistency and I hate retcons and forced storylines that trap writers in a no win scenario. And I also hate the 'dictator' that is nostalgia.
    I'm bitter because the kelvin timeline has always and will always have more potential if you want new trek iterations and add to canon without interfering with the other shows. That because this reality isn't that trapped by tos and you can virtually do anything here without having to worry too much about how to explain a retcon and make it fit into established canon. It had an enormous potential that is now wasted by poor managing of the studio.

    The way I see it, ostensibly making everything in the prime timeline only again would mean going backwards and pretty much contradict that need to do something new and truly different that was the foundation of the reboot.
    It's damn redundant.
    I ask myself if I really need to invest my money and time to watch more prequels and sequels of tos, when I have plenty that already, or I would rather see sequels of this 'what if' reality where everything is unpredictable and the characters I care about are all given a fresh start? A reality that created plot points never explored in tos and where the story has to reconcile with a race like the vulcans that literally had their original planet destroyed and they are now creating their world all over again on another planet.

    I feel like they try are trying to have the cake and eat it too now since they are obviously using the movies as inspiration, and tried to monetize on the audience that became trek fans thank to the reboot, but couldn't make their show in this reality so after 'copying' kelvin trek - so to speak - they now expect it to make room for them making it seems the movies are a hindrance.

    And yet, unfortunately, I'm still far more interested about the idea of this trek getting more stories than I'm about discovery or the Picard show now (where they only exciting thing for me is, ironically, the fact it does deal with the aftermath of what happened to Romulus in the first kelvin movie). I'm glad trek lives on TV still and that it isn't dead, but I'm very disappointed that the trek that had more potential for me is getting wasted.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
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  9. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think making everything the "prime universe" but changing and retconning it also much it might as well be a reboot, makes it a reboot.
     
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  10. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'd personally rather they just tell stories with the characters we've got instead of dicking around with multiple realities, but whatever.
     
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  11. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Commodore Commodore

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    Finally been watching STD on DVD and about halfway through and while its kind of fun the prequel to TOS element is just so off putting. No way could it be a prequel to TOS (even post VI/preTNG would've been a stretch) Its clearly in the JJverse! (or at least have had it post TNG where you could make the case that since Nero's involvement fast tracked the Kelvinverse then that's eventually how Primeverse would end up in 100years). Up till now everything synced with TOS :(
     
  12. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    While it looks it, the story doesn't fit in the Kelvin universe. In Star Trek Into Darkness the Klingons are a mostly unknown threat in 2259 whereas in Disco they've been at open war in 2256-7.

    I see Disco as it's own version of Trek. A Gotham to TOS' Adam West Batman series.
     
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  13. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Not when the creative team wants to ostensibly make their retcons fit into old canon, and they believe they need to dedicate a whole season explaining why Spock never mentioned having a sister - that he literally didn't have before discovery was made hence why she wasn't mentioned, lol. They trapped discovery in tos when they could've separated their characters from the old ones.

    And like, Spock didn't mention Sybok either, or other family members, so really, there is no need to make up some elaborated conjecture that, I fear, is going to look forced regardless. Sometimes, the more you explain the worse it gets.

    I prefer a honest old fashioned reboot or the excellent compromise that Kelvin trek is by being another reality.

    I also believe the issue with going back to tos is that, from my perspective, it's a bit too late to do some new things and add too much to that reality. A new one is the only solution with that potential, for me.
    I'm all for adding to canon and creating backstories for the characters, but doing that 50 years later isn't simple because you may not only conflict with years of established canon and trek lore, but you might disappoint fans who were happy with what they knew about the characters through the shows and novels, and thus their interpretations too (eg the idea Spock's only connection to humans when he was a kid was his mother). There is just too much, already, in between tos and discovery.

    I think in part it's the reason why some star wars fans don't like the new trilogy or they don't feel emotionally invested into it: not because they don't like the new characters but because the movies make them a bit broken hearted about the original ones who, many decades later, essentially now see their happy end from the EU contradicted or ruined by the recent canon additions. It would've been different if this trilogy was released right after the original one.
    Same goes for 'Solo''s flop: maybe the movie is simply flawed but I also think the studio overestimated people's interest in seeing the backstory of an old character they might not need or want to see at this point because it's too late and it might conflict with their headcanons, novels etc etc . Maybe many fans didn't want to know.



    And yet, different realities are as trek as you can get.
    Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.

    I might also argue they are contemporary to the most recent theories about quantum mechanics and the possibility parallel realities exist.



    I think at this point discovery can't be in the kelvin timeline (otherwise Spock and Pike wouldn't be on the Enterprise now. Remember that the kelvin timeline changed this aspect so Spock never had those 10 years of working with Pike before he met kirk&Co) but, while I believe the writers want it to be tos, I wouldn't rule out the possibility it might be another parallel reality and, technically, no one (of the characters) would know that.
     
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  14. Tosk

    Tosk Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I've no problem with that. I mean I'm bored by the idea of the show itself have some "big event" where they cross over or merge or whatever.
     
  15. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Anyway, I don't like the tone of that "I think it would only be a better experience for everybody (to have only one universe)" by Kadin. I mean, speak for yourself.
    I think the success of these movies already proves that 'everybody' wrong.

    I, for one, am grateful to have two realities and thus two different, separate, treks to enjoy on their own merit. It gave me more hope for this franchise than their streaming TV shows do, tbh.

    However, again, if a sync was really needed I think it's TV trek that should've synchronized with the most recent trek iteration (that they are imitating) that is the kelvin timeline; not the other way around. If anything, they are the ones making their product less enjoyable for that "everybody", especially the new generation of trek fans whose first and main experience with trek was the reboot, not tos.
    I don't honestly believe the target of new trek iterations is, necessarily, first foremost 'old fans' anyway.
    Either they have low expectations, or they aren't being honest (not to mention coherent )
     
  16. Khan 2.0

    Khan 2.0 Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah I realise it is an TOS 'prime' prequel, just meant visually its so jarring its just insane they had it set then
    Think they'll have to do something like that as otherwise its just ridiculous
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  17. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I think that, realistically, a thing made today cannot look like a show made in the 60s without looking terribly outdated. So the influence of JJ's trek is kind of natural as the influence something more contemporary has on something that is made nowadays.

    However, I also think it's kind of obvious they wanted to imitate JJ's trek to some degree, because it was successful, and their main goal was capturing, and monetize on, the audience that liked these movies and doesn't necessarily care about tos. So if they try to spin it around now and pretend they discovered (no pun intended) warm water with their show, and it's the movies that fail because they aren't like their thing, well I have to disagree and believe it's a tiny bit pathetic 'have the cake and eat it too' from their part.
    If their thing was allowed to also honestly use this reality, they now wouldn't be writing themselves into a corner by desperately telling us (and hopelessly reassuing old fans) that they will make the retcons fit into canon at any cost.
     
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  18. Lance

    Lance Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    IMHO they could have just left it vague. Just say it's "10 years before Kirk" but don't say 'which' Kirk, and keep the continuity fluid enough with the movie that we the fans could make our own minds up about fitting it in with the Abrams-verse without it being made explicit.
     
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  19. pst

    pst Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    so kurtzman says:
    and i just couldn't disagree more.

    star trek 2009 sort of anticipated the move toward lighter, more optimistic genre films, i think the ideals in the kelvin timeline are even more relevant now. it's shame even the guy who helped start the kelvin timeline wants to move away from it.
     
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  20. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Wait until they offer him to work for this trek again, lol
    (*I seem to remember he was credited as producer for the fourth movie but the imdb isn't reliable)
    I always kinda suspected that him and JJ wanted to do more with the movies but there are too many constraints to face.

    But really, he's selling his new thing. I find Kadin's words more annoying and pretentious because I don't like 'that kind of fan' who preaches about what 'everyone' wants when, truly, they are only talking about their own wishes. And again, the 'fans' these guys are really talking about - and whose money they wanted from the start - is the new gen of trek fans who loved the kelvin timeline movies because they were 'their trek', not tos; It is the fans who see Ethan Peck as looking more like Quinto's Spock than Nimoy's. Those don't care about tos canon and continuity, not necessarily.


    Btw, I have similar issues with this pretentious quote by Frakes too
    You’re given the time you need, the money you need, the equipment you need; and the quality of the department heads and the way Alex Kurtzman and the people running the show, all of it encourages you to “shoot to thrill.” And to not be afraid to try things and to do anything you can to make it special. You’re limited only by your imagination. And I think that’s an extension of the way that J.J. Abrams’ movies were. The freedom of camera movement and the exciting and dramatic use of light and color is something that audiences have come to get used to. Now, with Discovery also embracing the Roddenberry canon in a more valid way, it’s got the best of both worlds. I’m proud to be part of it.
    https://trekcore.com/blog/2019/01/jonathan-frakes-talks-star-trek-discovery-new-eden/

    How
    is discovery more 'valid' than the movies?
    Just because you put a 'prime trek' label on it and retcon tos it doesn't mean your thing is 'embracing canon in a more valid way' .

    And I get an allergic reaction everytime people use Roddenberry as a jolly card to win points in their argument.
    I mean, if you say that Nimoy liked the reboot, and the new version of Spock, you are stating a fact based on the opinions the guy himself shared with the world before dying.
    On the other hand, using a dead guy (Gene) who can't express his opinions about your thing as some sort of 'ally' to seek validation is lame. It also is ironic when you remember who the guy really was and thus some of his ideas. I think he'd probably love everything that is good AND bad about both these new trek iterations. Or he'd hate both because he wasn't involved, who knows. It is frankly irrelevant anyway, at this point.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
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