News Kurtzman discusses the Kelvin Timeline appearing on TV

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies: Kelvin Universe' started by Red Panda, Jan 18, 2019.

  1. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Is screenrant the same site that spread the (now debunked) theory that the rift between Spock and Michael had to be a failed sexual/romantic relationship? And if the idea wasn't lame and sexist enough(*), the author basically said that, logically, Spock must want to romance his step sister just because she is a black woman like his girlfriend from the kelvin timeline is. That's as lame and bad as those who claimed that Spock wanted to fuck his mom just because his girlfriend is a human woman like her. I see some people not only really dislike Uhura (I mean, is it so hard to reconcile with the idea Spock or anyone would love her on her own merit without having to rationalize it all with problematic crap?), but they really have little consideration for Spock as an individual.

    *(because, clearly, she's a woman so the issue must be sex. It figures if there are plenty of realistic reasons why they couldn't get along such as the fact that, from his child eyes, it might have seemed like his parents loved her more. Not to mention he was bullied and discriminated for being half human yet, he saw a fully human girl get accepted as a vulcan - eg Vulcan science academy . Can you imagine what kind of mess his childhood was and how much his parents are to blame? Michael makes even Sarek's expectations for him all the more unfair and illogical, it's like only Spock is not allowed to be human or have feelings and must thus conform to a vulcan stereotype)


    Now this theory about the red angel.... I dont know. The show definitely uses time travel and different realities so while they claim everything happens in the prime timeline, it isn't out the realm of possibilities that it might too be a quantum reality created by Spock prime (we say 'created' only for convenience because of our own perception of 'time')
    But that's the point, if Spock prime accidentally changed the past this makes Discovery another reality parallel to prime and it thus doesn't change HIS own past. Prime is always, still, there. Unless Discovery wants to do what the kelvin movies didn't dare to do: alter tos and change/cancel the prime timeline to the extent it would need to get 'restored' (bye bye neurons)

    I'm not inclined to think discovery is another reality because, honestly, it seems the creative team feels too validated by the fact their show is in the original ("real" for trek purists) timeline. Kadin preached about how 'everyone' (who is this everyone she was talking about? ) would prefer the movies to basically ditch the kelvin timeline and focus on the prime timeline like their show (again).
    And you have Frakes saying that they 'embrace canon in a more valid way' than the kelvin movies.
    No matter how much their thing is a reboot too, and they retcon the story of an important tos character, these people seem to think that putting a prime timeline label on their show gives them extra points. I can't agree with that, at all (if I wanted to be rude, I'd say they are delusional if they think that), neverthless it would look pathetic for them to make discovery another reality now after all the gloating about it being realtrek (tm) precisely because it isn't one..
     
  2. TrickyDickie

    TrickyDickie Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That's very true, of course. But with Trek, for both a lot who have created it and a lot who are fans, big loose ends don't sit well. They brought Spock back after TWOK and a lot of people have complained that they have not brought Kirk back since GEN....that's why Shatner's novels, where Kirk did return, have been quite popular. Trek has its own mystique within sci-fi and I think that we will see things re-set back to Prime at some point, maybe even including within the Picard series.
     
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  3. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I think Spock's story works better with a tragic end. Romulus gone, alt-Vulcan gone. Ends his life after establishing the New Vulcan colony. His intentions were always good and the galaxy would have been ruined over and over if he hadn't been there.

    I suspect The Picard Show may be about JLP picking up the mantle and trying to reunify the surviving Romulans with their Prime Vulcan brethren.
     
  4. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Could romulans from prime parallel the vulcans from the alt timeline? Both lost their planet, both have to find a new home and rebuild their race. It's good if the show will deal with the aftermath of that, I wish the kelvin movies had developed the aftermath of the vulcan diaspora more. It certaintly was one of my questions for sequels after watching Star Trek 2009, but then Spock gradually got sidelined compared to the first one (let's be honest, he was) and we didn't hear much about the vulcans beyond Spock having ptsd that wasn't fully developed itself.
     
  5. Tenacity

    Tenacity Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It did get a passing mention, where would a expanded story line be worked in?

    The movie series was a action adventure story focused primarily on the crew of a Starfleet ship battling the over-powered villain of the moment, depicting the likely extremely boring drudge work of setting up a new colony doesn't sound very exciting.

    Although briefly delving into the political question of whether the relatively small number of remaining Vulcans, on a new colony planet, without their original home planet, would still be federation members, could have been interesting. But I wouldn't have spent much time on it.
     
  6. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    It's not a loose end though. Spock didn't get to see the outcome of his work. And, with the Picard series, we do not know what the outcome will actually be with Romulus.
     
  7. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    I wouldn't make a whole movie about it but the aftermath of such a big event surely had many consequences for the vulcans and the federation and it would be interesting to see some of those aspects developed. They tie into trek themes nicely.
    It isn't just a matter of setting up a new home, though that is interesting too, I think what happened must have changed the vulcans deeply. I wonder if some of them lost their mind and became sort of like Nero and thus tried to get a revenge against the romulans in spite of them having no responsibility for what Nero did. Will alt Nero, if he will exist in this timeline too, get hated for something his prime counterpart did? Kelvin Nero will probably be like tos Nero was before he lost everything: a good guy who works on a mining ship and is dedicated to his wife and family. Is his destiny written by the other or he can get a chance and things don't have to go the same way.
    The moral dilemma of knowing about the future and the vulcans/federation having to decide if they tell the romulans that their planet might get destroyed and they'll need to find a new home too.

    Sure, we know the vulcans preach about logic and control but we also know that they have more emotions than humans and they originally were a very violent race. Control is a choice but also, I think, a need. Losing your home and telepathic links with beloved ones, feeling the death of your people.. it could make many become insane.
    The comics dealt with this aspect a bit.
    I suppose the vulcans might be divided into two groups now, one who became all the more insular and protective of their traditions while others try to learn from the tragedy and they understand the only way to save their race is becoming more open.
    And I also guess that there are enemies of the federation who could try to get the hostile vulcans on their side too and manipulate the situation.

    In short, I think one of the villains could have been linked to the aftermath of vulcan. Or instead of having one definite villain, you'd get something a bit more complex as a threat than the usual bad guy.

    I guess this all ties back into one of my issues with this trilogy which is the fact tptb didn't have a plan and ongoing story to link all 3 movies together in a way that made the audience feel like they really had to watch what came next. Beyond is the worst about that because it really feels disconnected from the first two in ways I cannot, honestly, think they were particularly smart or necessary. The first two created a ton of pretexts to build a sequel but they ignored most of them. See the Klingons too.. or what happened with admiral Marcus. There is never a follow up that makes them deal with the consequences of what happened previously.
    What can truly link beyond to the first two? What obviously makes it another trek and another reality? Aside from stuff like ongoing spock/uhura, kirk/bones and an underdeveloped conflict for Spock about his duty to the vulcans, you might as well think it was a tos fanfiction or just an extended tos episode.
    I honestly think a lot of people expected, after the first movie, to see the consequences of this being another reality and thus see how different it truly becomes compared to tos. Different also means completely unpredictable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  8. gerbil

    gerbil Captain Captain

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    Beyond was primarily about wrapping up the Star Trek arc. Star Trek establishes the characters, STID shows that they aren’t the mature crew we knew yet, and Beyond is showing that maturity. Kirk is in command. Spock and McCoy are his friends.

    Most importantly, the shot of Kirk on an empty bridge as the camera pans around the calm bridge in the middle of this chaos is a direct mirror of George Kirk on the Kelvin’s bridge. Kirk’s defense of the Federation’s diversity and pursuit of better angels also directly ties into STID’s rebuke of the clandestine and immoral work of Section 31.

    I think it feels distinctly “Trekkian” because it’s meant to show that maturity. And as the apparent end of a trilogy, it at least closed those arcs.
     
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  9. Pubert

    Pubert Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Most are movie stars. They've moved on.
     
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  10. StarTrek1701

    StarTrek1701 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Pine is a flop actor besides Star Trek.
    Zachary Quinto's career is near invisible.
    Karl Urban, nobody even cared for him in Thor:Ragnarok.
    Zoe Saldana besides her Marvel ensembles is nowhere memorable.
    John Cho is getting regular work but its fully forgettable.
    Simon Pegg killed Star Trek by Beyond.
    Anton Yelchin is RIP.

    If anything, these actors need Star Trek more than Star Trek needs them.
     
  11. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

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    Pine is not a flop actor. He's appeared in wonder woman, been jack ryan, and received critical acclaim in hell or high water amongst other roles. He's had mixed success but he's certainly not a flop.

    Quinto I'd agree with you, he's not done a great deal.

    Urban has done more roles than thor 3 that he's famous for. Dredd amongst others. I would say he's pretty well liked by general audiences.

    Saldana is arguably doing the best - you can't just wave away her contribution to the MCU, there's avatar and it's upcoming sequels too as well as trek. If that's not a successful career then I don't know what is.

    Cho I'd agree with you, he's not a major star but then I wouldn't particularly expect his role of sulu to propel him to that. He's still fairly well known for harold and kumar and the American pie movies though.

    I wouldn't say pegg 'ruined' beyond either. The crowded schedule it was released into and lack of promotion saw to that. He is also very successful in his own right.

    In conclusion I'd argue that only quinto and cho 'need' star trek.
     
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  12. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I'm content with Trek acknowledging the destruction of Romulus and moving on.

    We really don't need to see the Kelvinverse again - it's done, let it go.
     
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  13. Malaika

    Malaika Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Quinto has a new TV show and some recent movies, as well as working for theather. Solid actor with a stable career where he often plays the main character or one of the leads; might not be A list but none of them really are (aside from Zoe who unfortunately endures the usual sexism and racism of Hollywood so she's underrated compared to others) . I wouldn't say he is more invisible than Urban. I'd argue he's still more known and popular internationally than him and Cho; those two need trek more than Quinto, Pine and Saldana but I'd still argue they all need trek because being part of a big franchise is always better than not being part of it. In that sense, trek also is kind of more safe because not all the franchises become such and get sequels.
    Hollywood is full of actors, though, who said no to big franchises or lost those roles to other actors, and later regretted it immensely.
     
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  14. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

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    Yeah I knew quinto was working and doing stuff but I can't recall what it was and don't think it was anything too high profile? I remember him in 'heroes' (and though he was excellent in it) but I can't name another thing he's famous for. Maybe I'm being ignorant or what he's done has just simply passed me by. I would say I've seen Urban in more stuff but maybe it's just my tastes that have drawn me to my conclusion.

    Either way these two actors are the two that absolutely nailed their parts in the kelvin films. I still really enjoyed Pine's Kirk, but I would say I bought into these being their actual younger counterparts more. It'll be a shame if we don't get to see them play them again.

    I think it's worth one more punt at the kelvin films. The likes of godzilla and dark phoenix would kill for beyonds 59m domestic opening. Was 343m really THAT bad when the 2009 movie did 385m?Surely they could put something pretty decent out for 120m and get a similar or more return and make money?
     
  15. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    If this is the argument then I don't need Star Trek again. It's done. Let it go.

    And many stars can come back to projects they enjoy. Actors are people too.
     
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  16. Relayer1

    Relayer1 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Two things -

    I didn't care for the Kelvin films. I didn't like the design aesthetic, most of the cast, the plots, the direction of the overall style of films. I gave them a chance, was on the fence with the first one and thought they got steadily worse. Obviously your mileage may vary, but I'm not a fan.

    Secondly, their reason to exist has disappeared - the idea of being able to tell stories with the TOS crew unconstrained by decades of TV lore was sound. However, 'that' crew have moved on and become too expensive / aren't interested, and aren't coming back. You don't need the Kelvinverse to tell stories about other crews - Discovery is doing that very well thank you.

    Plus the viewing public seem pretty ambivalent about the Kelvinverse. There's a lot of mileage left in Trek, but no need for that bit.
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Two things:
    One, I don't need the whole of the Kelvinverse crew to tell Kelvinverse stories. I personally like the aesthetics and design and would like to see more.

    Secondly, I am not convinced that there is mileage left in Trek as much of it relies upon nostalgia and retread. The part of the Kelvin films that actually felt timely and commentary are all but ignored for the sake of either bashing it or just loving on the Kirk and Spock or Spock McCoy dynamic.

    Your mileage may vary, but thus far I am unconvinced that Star Trek "needs" to continue forward. And if it does continue forward I see no issue with having sotries in the Kelvinuniverse, with, or without Pine and CO.
     
  18. WarpFactorZ

    WarpFactorZ Commodore Commodore

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    The whole point of the Kelvinverse is how it affected the TOS crew. Telling a story without them in it might as well be set in the prime universe.
     
  19. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Admiral Admiral

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    Completely disagree .
     
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