News Kurtzman: Discovery: The Finale And The Future

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Discovery' started by AutoAdmin, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Honestly? I fuckin' hate it.
    Yes, I had quite some problems with their depiction of the 23rd century. But you know what? I got into it. They did a pretty good job overall in season 2 to bring it closer to how it should be. And I don't care that much about canon minutae if the overall tone fits. It's just a television production after all. And they really got better at that.

    But you know what? Now that I have bought into the show, it feels like kind of a betrayal to completely and entirely throw 2 years(!) of the show just away! That's so fuckin' stupid. TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT ALL had problems within their first two years. Know what they did? Improved. So did DIS for season 2.

    Instead, they decided to throw the baby out with the dishwater. To be quite honest - I don't trust them to get that "new" timeline right the first time either. They essentially completely rebooted their own show, instead of iterated upon it. Guess what? They will have the same problem in their "new" universe as well. Becaue they now have to built an entire new fuckin' universe from scratch again. And if that doesn't work out immediately either, then what?

    It's the same problem that "Into Darkness" had. People complained about ST09 how unrealistically fast Kirk became a Captain. But instead of aknowledging that criticism with a handwave (like having a montage of Kirk doing some good Captain shit) - they let it dictate their entire fuckin' movie premise, and set Kirk back to square one, to go through the SAME story-arc of "becoming" a Captian again, just even more on-the-nose.

    I feel this happened here again: People didn't like their worldbuilding. Instead of improving it step-by-step, they threw out their ENTIRE world, only to introduce a completely new one. Guess what? People won't like that new world first try either.
     
    Campe98, Kaelef, burningoil and 4 others like this.
  2. Starflight

    Starflight Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    I get all that and agree to an extent, but their depiction of the 23rd century leaned so heavily on existing material that you have to wonder where they'd take it in a third season. Spock and Pike are essentially inaccessible, we've already messed around with Talos IV enough, and nobody wants to go back to the mirror universe (if we should ever have gone in the first place...), so what's left? The Talos IV plot largely worked out because it was skilfully executed and filled in a sort of blank, explaining why Talos IV was a logical place for Spock to take wheelchair-Pike to in The Menagerie, but what else is there to nab from TOS, in a way that makes any sort of sense?

    For me personally, one of my favourite things about TOS is the sense of discovery and mystery, which is why I've absolutely hated every single recurrence of the mirror universe, whether it's been DS9, ENT or Discovery. I really can't think of any other plot points they could use that wouldn't undermine the original episodes - how much lamer would the planet killer or the space amoeba be if they'd already been encountered a decade prior, and then shelved for some quick-canon-fix reason?

    All the other stories they've been interested in telling - Red Angel, spore network, evil AI going bananas and spamming nanobots everywhere, etc - could work in any time period, and would honestly work better detached from a period we already largely know. The decision to change the show's setting gives the writing team the chance to have their stories and ideas stand on their own, without leaning on existing characters or fanservice-y callbacks, and we'll have to see if their scripts are strong enough for it.
     
    Amasov, SolarisOne and Quinton like this.
  3. Roald

    Roald Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 1999
    Location:
    Zwijndrecht, the Netherlands
    As perhaps Discovery’s BIGGEST fan, I do not feel this is a cop out or caving in, and I love the idea of a ship ‘lost in time’..!
     
  4. Jackson_Roykirk

    Jackson_Roykirk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Yes, they used callbacks, but I don't think the potential stories DSC could tell needs to rely on callbacks. It's a big galaxy [quandrant]. There is plenty of stuff that could happen in the pre-TOS era that can be detached from TOS so as to not overtly contradict TOS.

    In fact, it's the fan-service callbacks that causes the problems. The inclusion of those things is what makes the writers walk on eggshells trying to make sure it lines up with TOS. The answer to that problem would be to use far less of those sorts of TOS-y items. They would need a few TOS-y items to remind us what the show was billed to be -- i.e., "the years before Captain Kirk's 5-year Mission of the Enterprise" -- but not so many as to tie the writers' hands.

    Maybe I'm naive, but I see no reason why that can't be done. Like I said, the TOS galaxy was a big place. TOS did three seasons of episodes that were practically all stand-alone stories that didn't relay on a over-acrhing background mythology interconnecting it all. They met a different and unique alien in maybe 65% to 75% of the episodes that were never mentioned again.

    I'm not saying the DSC should be all stand-alone episodes; that's not my point. The point is that TOS did not have a lot of inter-connectivity between episodes, so there isn't a lot of mythology that DSC would necessarily "step on" when exploring their own corner of the quadrant(s).

    DSC could have an overarching story set in the 23rd century that (like TOS) uses unique aliens that are never heard from again, while keepnig just a few TOS call-backs and references in order to remind us that it is happening in the pre-TOS universe.

    I mean, why not?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
    Vger23, Ovation, Kaelef and 3 others like this.
  5. Starflight

    Starflight Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    That was what I was trying to get at. There are virtually infinite stories to tell in the TOS/pre-TOS era, as The Animated Series and countless licensed works and fan works prove, but Discovery doesn't seem to be willing to do so, and so this timeline hop might provide more suitable conditions for the writers to tell the kind of stories they want.

    I think part of the issue is that the writers of this show want to go for big universe-changing plots, where The Fate Of The Entire Multiverse is in jeopardy and epic battles that threaten to tear the Federation apart while Klingons bombard Earth are the norm. Those stories are difficult and jarring when we're dealing with a time period that we already know a fair deal about, even if all we know is a sort of rough outline.

    If all Discovery's stories had been akin to the Kelpien planet, the Sphere creature and so on, they'd never have had any issues with the setting in the first place.
     
    Jadeb, Michael, SolarisOne and 3 others like this.
  6. Unimatrix Q

    Unimatrix Q Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Location:
    Germany
    I really liked that they did with the TOS setting, but am also really happy that we now finally after all these years have a trek show set in the far future after TNG, DS9 and Voyager. I'm so excited to see the characters i have grown to love dealing with being stranded in this time.

    For the ones who miss the 23rd century setting: I'm almost absolutely certain the Pike show is only a matter of time :cool:
     
    SolarisOne and Quinton like this.
  7. Quinton

    Quinton Lieutenant Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2019
    Location:
    Durham, NC
    I’m stoked for the time jump and it’s everything I could have asked for. I might not have been so thrilled if the show had started out in the 24th/25th centuries because I’m a huge fan of that era but honestly leaving behind the pre-TOS setting is just gonna make me like this show even more going forward.

    I expect a bumpy ride establishing the 33rd century (or the 28th, if that predictably could accurate rumor report that got everything else right is to be believed) but I’ll enjoy it, bumps and all. We’re boldly going into a brand new era! That’s exciting.
     
  8. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in its final stage
    I'm calling it now: Season 3 will be Michael Burnham's Andromeda. She'll found the Second Federation after emerging into a crapsack future.
     
  9. Kemaiku

    Kemaiku Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2004
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    New Eden may still be a technophobic world in 31-something or other, but it would be in easy reach of the Federation by slipstream by the late 2380's, nevermind what the Federation is by Daniel's day.
     
    Markonian likes this.
  10. Rahul

    Rahul Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    To be honest: The 33rd (or 28th) century doesn't have more or less story possibilities than the 23rd. Their all just numbers that come down to "the future" if we're being honest.

    Going that far into the future only creates EVEN MORE canon -headaches. They are now hamstringing not just their new Picard show - but the entire next 500 years of the Trek universe will now forever be a "prequel" to DIS third season. The wanted to escape canon problems that were created because of the prequel setting? Congratulations, you wrapped them around the entire future of the franchise!

    The question is weather they go full on lore-galore again (future-Federation fighting Borg & Dominion, Klingons and Romulans) - or if they completely seperating DIS from the rest of the Trek universe forever (humans all coming from "Terrealysium" - meaning non-perfect, religious humans, in a space with previously unknown aliens).

    Both aren't that great options - and to be frank, both are a completely new show, not the one we have been following so far for two seasons.
     
    Markonian, Longinus, Jadeb and 2 others like this.
  11. ELURIA

    ELURIA Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2001
    Mudd acting unlike Mudd, Sarek smiling, Mirror Universe people's sudden photosensitive eyes, no sign or mention of Sybok during flashbacks on Vulcan = story-wise and character-wise contradictions of TOS and the other series
     
  12. ELURIA

    ELURIA Captain Captain

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2001
    In my view, STD's been rebooting itself since the pilot. The "world" has been thrown out a few times now, so it happening again just fits the established pattern
     
  13. King Daniel Beyond

    King Daniel Beyond Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Location:
    A type 13 planet in its final stage
    If Discovery were the only Trek show, this may have merit. But while Discovery is doing their thing in the 32nd century (equipped with a timesuit so visit friends on occasion), Section 31 will still be buzzing around the 23rd, Lower Decks may be probably set in the era as well. If the Starfleet Academy series is really happening, we saw cadet and instructor uniforms in Pike's flashforward, which were likely designed for that show indicating 23rd.

    Their worldbuilding isn't wasted.
     
    Markonian and SolarisOne like this.
  14. Jackson_Roykirk

    Jackson_Roykirk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    In TOS, Mudd went from drug-dealing pimp to comic clown. So I'm OK with Mudd's temperament again being different in DSC.

    That's not new. Vulcans often (Mark Lenard's Sarek, for example, as did Spock on many occasions) have a self-satisfied/self important-looking smirk on their faces.

    Examples:
    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Z5qF5jL0T9Q/TskXGr1VQsI/AAAAAAAADdk/pn4og5-nVUU/s1600/Sarek+Babek.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f5/69/70/f56970eb6b373d0677f5d424d0aa71a6.jpg
    https://geekandsundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/spockfeature-970x545.jpg
    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a3/6f/dd/a36fdd18323ffb644800a0058853da38.jpg
    https://66.media.tumblr.com/10f0c715ed7ef9a06b8741989146d8ad/tumblr_pl30i3BzQR1v8pbqv_540.jpg
    https://66.media.tumblr.com/74c0cb8d403c5450a204e10f3c0260a2/tumblr_npetasKrAe1tmlk8yo3_400.jpg

    Most of what we saw of the mirror universe people in other Star Treks took place in the mirror universe itself. On the few occasions when we saw MU people in our universe it's plausible they had the same sensitivity, but it wouldn't rise to the level of needing to be mentioned.

    There are other plausible explanations as well. It's not really a big deal.

    I dunno. Maybe he was away at a different boarding school by the time Burnham is taken in. It's not like he and Spock were close. I bet Sybok and Amanda were not close, either.

    TOS spock had three seasons and four movies during which he could have mentioned him but didn't. So what's a few more episodes of the same?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  15. Jeyl

    Jeyl Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2009
    Location:
    Asheville, NC
    Spock's adoptive sister.
     
  16. Serveaux

    Serveaux The Man Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2013
    Location:
    Always seeking new and better distractions
    Harry Mudd was willing to have the Enterprise crash into a mining planet rather than face incarceration, and later lured them to an unknown world with the intent to have his android sex slaves imprison them while he took their ship.

    He was not a nice man.
     
    Ovation, Kaelef, burningoil and 3 others like this.
  17. Jackson_Roykirk

    Jackson_Roykirk Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2007
    Location:
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Foster sister.

    While we're at it, I suppose you're upset with TOS that even after the events of the episode Amok Time Spock didn't bother telling Kirk who his father was?

    While I understand that the writers probably didn't consider making Spock's father the Ambassador when Amok Time was written, I still think the resulting revelation in Journey to Babel gives the appearance of poor continuity planning on the writer's part. However, that doesn't rise to the level of breaking canon, just like Spock being secretive about a foster sister doesn't break canon.

    Besides, they explained in the DSC season 2 finale why TOS Spock never mentioned Burnham -- although I don't think the explanation was required, nor was it better than simply the already-known fact that "because Spock is notoriously secretive about family"
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
    Ovation, seigezunt, Kaelef and 5 others like this.
  18. tavor

    tavor Lieutenant Junior Grade Red Shirt

    Joined:
    May 4, 2014
    first off i haven't managed to see any of this show yet
    so if they time travel into the future chances are that they at some point end up in a space battle episode against ships from that time frame ,problem is they are equipped with obsolete weapons/shields that wont scratch the paintwork on those future ships ,wonder how writers work with that one?
     
  19. Noname Given

    Noname Given Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    May 22, 2001
    Location:
    None Given
    I'm really conflicted as the 23rd century is my favorite period of Star Trek; and aside from a few quibbles I had...

    (Most notably about the 'split and swept back nacelles' on Pike's 1701 <--- Had they been the original TOS style, OR split OR just swept back, I would 100% love the exterior 1701 design they had; but with what they did, I still like 90% - and LOVE the interior 1701 Bridge)...

    I still LOVE what they were doing in the 23rd century overall, and am sad to see it go after 29 new episodes in it. IDK if I'll like the 32nd century, but I'll give it a shot...

    Although to Picard and TNG fans... Are you now going to dis the 25th century Picard show because it's now going to be 'in the past' (compared to the Federation of the 32nd century we'll see in ST: D). I remember all the cries of:

    "Star Trek is ALWAYS about the future and should move forward..."

    And now we're going to get a series set 700 years in the past with an old retired Starfleet Captain who couldn't decide if he was French or English... ;):shrug::rommie:
     
    Kor, Ovation, seigezunt and 1 other person like this.
  20. *JackBurton*

    *JackBurton* Cadet Newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2019
    We saw what Nero’s ship could do to federation ships from this era. I wonder how discovery in her damaged state will do in the future?