Kirk: old too soon?

[Paradise City]

Odo turns into a rock, he's scanned, the scanner sees a rock.

That's a super power.

I'd prefer if he didn't show up on sensors or something like that and wasn't able to swallow up a working communicator.

It'd serve to give him huge strengths whilst also affording him some limitations.

 

[JediKnightButler]

A major theme of TWOK was that Kirk was feeling old. We know that Kirk was actually a couple of years younger than Shatner, and Shatner was barely 50 when they filmed TWOK -- hardly old for a ship's captain. Now, obviously, this gives an actor a lot to work with, so I'm sure Shatner didn't mind, but did they overplay this element?

I think the age concern was valid for a Kirk who--as McCoy observed:

This is about you flying a goddamn computer console when you wanna be out there hopping Galaxies.

For the job he may not have been too old, but being out of the field for so long made him feel useless. Its often a contradiction of reality, but sitting around-doing not much of anything can make one feel tired (instead of content or refreshed), or old, while exerting yourself, pursuing your life's goal makes you feel alive.

Spock adds this insightful line:

If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.

Take away a man's reason to be, and he will wither--even if he's successful in other fields. In Kirk's case, he was promoted to admiral, but that was just a title with no heart--not the reason he joined Starfleet. With his reason to be far removed from his life, his calendar age would seem to gain his attention, as he was just another older officer collecting dust, instead of being an explorer challenging his life over and again.

So, basically, "Use it or lose it!"

 

[NigellaDeanna20]

A major theme of TWOK was that Kirk was feeling old. We know that Kirk was actually a couple of years younger than Shatner, and Shatner was barely 50 when they filmed TWOK -- hardly old for a ship's captain. Now, obviously, this gives an actor a lot to work with, so I'm sure Shatner didn't mind, but did they overplay this element?

I don't think it was just a case of Kirk feeling "old and worn out" as he says in the movie, but more a case of a middle-aged crisis. As Spock says to him, "Commanding a Starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material."

Picard: "Tea, Earl-grey, hot!"

 

[JonnyQuest037]

A major theme of TWOK was that Kirk was feeling old. We know that Kirk was actually a couple of years younger than Shatner, and Shatner was barely 50 when they filmed TWOK -- hardly old for a ship's captain. Now, obviously, this gives an actor a lot to work with, so I'm sure Shatner didn't mind, but did they overplay this element?

According to Nicholas Meyer's commentary on the TWOK Director's Edition, the script originally stated that it was Kirk's 49th or 50th birthday (I forget which), but Shatner suggested that it might be better to keep Kirk's exact age oblique. Whether that was for dramatic or ego reasons, I don't know.

 

[ItIsGreen]

I vaguely remember the Okudas' Star Trek Chronology mentioning that Kirk was 52 in TWOK. However I haven't read it in a very long time, and that book was FULL of conjecture.

Kirk may well have started off a few years younger than Shatner, but surely must have overtaken him between TMP and TWOK as we jumped approximately 10 years of in-universe time between TMP & TWOK, whereas only 3-4 years of real time passed between the two (though the actors do seem to have aged considerably during that time!).

 

[Tim Thomason]

Here's a chart with the approximate ages of Kirk, Shatner, and the years, according to the Okuda Chronology:

 +-----------+------------+------------+---------------+
 | Year (RL) | Year (OC)  | Kirk's Age | Shatner's Age |
 +-----------+------------+------------+---------------+
 | 1966      | 2266       | 33         | 35            |
 | 1967      | 2267       | 34         | 36            |
 | 1968      | 2268       | 35         | 37            |
 | 1969      | 2269       | 36         | 38            |
 | 1973      | 2269       | 36         | 42            |
 | 1974      | 2270       | 37         | 43            |
 | 1979      | 2273       | 40         | 48            |
 | 1982      | 2285       | 52         | 51            |
 | 1984      | 2285       | 52         | 53            |
 | 1986      | 2286       | 53         | 55            |
 | 1989      | 2287       | 54         | 58            |
 | 1991      | 2293       | 60         | 60            |
 | 1994      | 2293/2371  | 60         | 63            |
 +-----------+------------+------------+---------------+

Kirk, per the Okudas, was only older than Shatner once (in Star Trek II), which wouldn't have been the case had they followed the intent of the film placing it fifteen years post-Space Seed (i.e. 2282, around Kirk's 49th birthday).

There is the ten-year time jump from TMP to The Wrath of Khan, but that kind of just offsets the six-year time jump in the real world (TMP being made 10 years after the end of the Original Series, but only taking place 2-1/2 years later).

Also, just for funsies, here's the Chris Pine chart:

 +-----------+------------+------------+------------+
 | Year (RL) | Year (OC)  | Kirk's Age | Pine's Age |
 +-----------+------------+------------+------------+
 | 2009      | 2255       | 22         | 29         |
 | 2009      | 2258       | 25         | 29         |
 | 2013      | 2259       | 26         | 33         |
 +-----------+------------+------------+------------+

 

[Gary Mitchell]

Kira killed one unarmed bathing Cardassian and then "liberated" a lot of places after the Cardassians had already left;

That wasn't Kira, that was Li Nalas. http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Li_Nalas

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I vaguely remember the Okudas' Star Trek Chronology mentioning that Kirk was 52 in TWOK. However I haven't read it in a very long time, and that book was FULL of conjecture.

Yeah. I think they arrived at that figure from trying to justify the "2283" date on the bottle of Romulan Ale that McCoy brought over to Kirk's apartment.

They also had a gap of 18 years happening between "Space Seed" and TWOK, which contradicts dialogue from both Khan and Kirk. I can imagine Kirk messing up how many years it's been since they've seen each other, but Khan? No way. He would've known the length of his Ceti Alpha V exile down to the second.

IMO, they should've just stuck with 49 as Kirk's age. Not only is it a slightly more logical age to have a midlife crisis than 52, but it jibes better with Kirk's age around the time of "Space Seed." We know that Kirk was 34 by the time "The Deadly Years" rolled around, so he was likely 33 or 34 when they encountered Khan. 34 +15 = 49.

 

[FormerLurker]

They should have also just admitted that the 2283 date was either a Romulan date or a Federation misprint. Or admitted that Romulan ale ferments so quickly that a bottle put up last month is at full potency. Either one works.

 

[Timo]

I'm not too enamored with the idea that it has to be Kirk's fiftieth birthday sharp that triggers his crisis. Or that the fifteen year comments there should be taken as accurate rather than approximate.

Wherever the story goes from there, doesn't matter much, as long as the annoyingly exact interpretations don't have to be adhered to.

But the Okudas make lots of strange claims in that timeline anyway. Why spread out the four "serialized" movies across two years?

That wasn't Kira, that was Li Nalas

Oops, right.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[JonnyQuest037]

They should have also just admitted that the 2283 date was either a Romulan date or a Federation misprint. Or admitted that Romulan ale ferments so quickly that a bottle put up last month is at full potency. Either one works.

The writing and directing in that scene have never made the joke especially clear, anyway. Is it supposed to be Kirk ribbing McCoy about bringing him a not-very-old bottle of spirits? Is Kirk supposed to be impressed with the age of the bottle? That seems to jibe better with McCoy's "It takes this stuff a while to ferment" line, which DeForest Kelley delivers unironically.

And is it supposed to be an Earth year or a Romulan year? How are we supposed to know one way or the other?

Honestly, the Trek timeline was so vaguely defined at that point ("In the 23rd Century..." was as specific as it got), the joke was pretty oblique to begin with. I've seen TWOK dozens of times, and I'm still not quite sure what they were going for there.

 

[eyeresist]

The writing and directing in that scene have never made the joke especially clear, anyway. Is it supposed to be Kirk ribbing McCoy about bringing him a not-very-old bottle of spirits? Is Kirk supposed to be impressed with the age of the bottle? That seems to jibe better with McCoy's "It takes this stuff a while to ferment" line, which DeForest Kelley delivers unironically.

And is it supposed to be an Earth year or a Romulan year? How are we supposed to know one way or the other?

Honestly, the Trek timeline was so vaguely defined at that point ("In the 23rd Century..." was as specific as it got), the joke was pretty oblique to begin with. I've seen TWOK dozens of times, and I'm still not quite sure what they were going for there.

McCoy's comment on the date suggests 2283 was a relatively long time ago, which doesn't match the "In the 23rd Century..." caption, but I don't think there's any meaning to be derived from it. It's just a lapse in continuity.
OTOH, if you want an in-universe explanation, I think saying McCoy was being ironic works pretty well.

 

[FormerLurker]

McCoy has been known to be too subtle for some people's tastes. I can accept this as one such occasion.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I think saying McCoy was being ironic works pretty well.

Yeah, that's pretty much how I justify it. When I put together my own Trek timeline, I had TWOK taking place in 2283, and Kirk celebrating his 49th birthday (as I believe that this was the age that Nicholas Meyer specified in his script, IIRC).

 

[Timo]

And is it supposed to be an Earth year or a Romulan year? How are we supposed to know one way or the other?

Could Kirk even read Romulan? This stuff "smuggled" out of the Star Empire is likely to be labeled for the needs of the customers; for all we know, it's a Romulan Senate project intended to turn the privileged Fed elite into helpless drunkards. And if it's in English, then the years have no doubt been "translated" for the customer, too.

(Well, okay, Kirk might have learned to recognize the numerals if nothing else. But he's have more exposure to Klingons, and he apparently doesn't speak or read that lingo.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[BK613]

If the date is Terran, the fact that we are talking about an ale (and not a wine) would allow that date to be in TWOK's future and not its past. Some ales undergo a further fermentation process after bottling. Such bottle-fermented ales often have a best after date that indicates when this extra fermentation process is supposed to be complete. It is my understanding, and I am no expert, that drinking the ale before this date is perfectly safe. Typically, though, IRL, ales aren't distributed by bottlers until this date is achieved but who knows when in the process the smuggled Romulan ale was purloined.

So the date could be next year, ten years or fifty years into TWOK's future. And that possibility really makes McCoy's statement make sense.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If the date is Terran, the fact that we are talking about an ale (and not a wine) would allow that date to be in TWOK's future and not its past. Some ales undergo a further fermentation process after bottling. Such bottle-fermented ales often have a best after date that indicates when this extra fermentation process is supposed to be complete. It is my understanding, and I am no expert, that drinking the ale before this date is perfectly safe. Typically, though, IRL, ales aren't distributed by bottlers until this date is achieved but who knows when in the process the smuggled Romulan ale was purloined.

So the date could be next year, ten years or fifty years into TWOK's future. And that possibility really makes McCoy's statement make sense.

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't ever thought of it that way before, but now that you say that, I'm sure that must have been the intent. it just makes too much sense.

I wonder if Nicholas Meyer would have any memory of what he originally intended at this point?

 

[BK613]

^^ Don't know if it was intended, but it is a nice solution. I can't take full credit; I was made aware of the dating by a co-worker that home-brews. Never connected to TWOK until a rewatch. Should've seen the look on my wife's face when I burst out with a "It's an ale!"

 

[Mojochi]

Ultimately, I think we might be missing the simplest point here. This isn't really an issue of life expectancy. It's about aging. Regardless of how old the average life expectancy is, relative to us, or to those in the 23rd, or 24th centuries, nothing we've seen in any incarnation of Trek has indicated that there's a drastic change in the aging process

Much like how real life expectancy advances work, it's mostly a study in progressing geriatric medicine. We allow the old to live longer, not allow the young to stay young longer. When both Picard & Kirk are 50, they look & likely feel indistinguishably different than someone of comparable health & athleticism, among us today. They still age the same, & therefore would experience the same feelings of getting older that we do, especially, as someone previously pointed out, when they have been sedentary, or less active.

Now, when we can master the genes that instruct our bodies to age the way they do, & alter those... then we'll be looking at a much more jarring advance in life expectancy, where we actually slow the aging process, so that when you've lived 60 years, you are physically comparable to a 30 year old. Until then, 60-70 is still old in an aging sense, & you begin needing the aid of medical treatment to maintain a healthy living being

 

[FormerLurker]

You're correct except for the idea that Picard was supposed to be about 60 in Encounter at Farpoint, yet was comparable to a 20th century 40 year old. That assumes they've already begun working on that gene by that point.