Kirk: old too soon?

[A beaker full of death]

A major theme of TWOK was that Kirk was feeling old. We know that Kirk was actually a couple of years younger than Shatner, and Shatner was barely 50 when they filmed TWOK -- hardly old for a ship's captain. Now, obviously, this gives an actor a lot to work with, so I'm sure Shatner didn't mind, but did they overplay this element?

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

A major theme of TWOK was that Kirk was feeling old. We know that Kirk was actually a couple of years younger than Shatner, and Shatner was barely 50 when they filmed TWOK -- hardly old for a ship's captain. Now, obviously, this gives an actor a lot to work with, so I'm sure Shatner didn't mind, but did they overplay this element?

I think the age concern was valid for a Kirk who--as McCoy observed:

This is about you flying a goddamn computer console when you wanna be out there hopping Galaxies.

For the job he may not have been too old, but being out of the field for so long made him feel useless. Its often a contradiction of reality, but sitting around-doing not much of anything can make one feel tired (instead of content or refreshed), or old, while exerting yourself, pursuing your life's goal makes you feel alive.

Spock adds this insightful line:

If I may be so bold, it was a mistake for you to accept promotion. Commanding a starship is your first best destiny. Anything else is a waste of material.

Take away a man's reason to be, and he will wither--even if he's successful in other fields. In Kirk's case, he was promoted to admiral, but that was just a title with no heart--not the reason he joined Starfleet. With his reason to be far removed from his life, his calendar age would seem to gain his attention, as he was just another older officer collecting dust, instead of being an explorer challenging his life over and again.

 

[A beaker full of death]

Excellent points. Thanks for the response.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

"Time is the Fire in which we all burn."
-- Dr. Soran (or maybe Delmore Schwartz)

Was the average human life-span in the TOS era as long as the TNG era? If it wasn't, Starfleet retirement age might have been sooner. Even if that wasn't the case, there were probably a good number of young distinguished commanders who would love to get in captain's seat of the Enterprise.

And you know, the thought of certain numerical ages scares people a lot. Basically every 5 and 10 years after you turn twenty, really. The next decade is always lingering in the background.

Even if it wasn't really that feasible by in-universe standards, I'm glad they did it anyway. It humanized Kirk in a very strong way; it gave him a weakness to balance out his strengths. Actually, I have a much harder time relating/feeling for Kirk in TOS and ST:TMP. I think this is really where his character took off.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Comic book artist and STAR TREK NEW VISIONS creator John Byrne has suggested that they should've said that Kirk was around 100 in TWOK, as by the 23rd Century, medicine would have progressed to the point that 100 looked like 50.

 

[Skywalker]

Generations had a similar problem. The movie was all about Picard facing his mortality, and Soran even had a line about Picard realizing there were fewer years ahead of him than there were behind. Yet Picard was only in is mid-60s in Generations, which should really be more like middle age for a human in the late 24th century.

 

[RoJoHen]

The theme of these characters getting old is actually one of my favorite things about the TOS films. It made them feel more real, more human. They weren't just action heroes hopping around the stars.

 

[Timelord79 (he/him)]

He had gained weight and his eyes got worse. That can make you feel old no matter how many laps around the sun you have under your belt.

 

[FormerLurker]

Comic book artist and STAR TREK NEW VISIONS creator John Byrne has suggested that they should've said that Kirk was around 100 in TWOK, as by the 23rd Century, medicine would have progressed to the point that 100 looked like 50.

I don't agree with him. The average lifespan for a human, barring incident or extreme illness, has been a steady 70-80 for some 10,000-100,000 years. Even with the leaps and bounds in medicine in the last 100 years or so, that hasn't changed. Making those leaps and bounds easier, simpler and more efficient to use, which is what 23rd century medicine was all about, really, won't make that much difference. As Skywalker said, it wasn't until the 24th century that more, better leaps and bounds occur, extending the lifespan. For now, and in the 23rd century in Star Trek, medicine seems to be concentrating on making the years we do get more worthwhile.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Comic book artist and STAR TREK NEW VISIONS creator John Byrne has suggested that they should've said that Kirk was around 100 in TWOK, as by the 23rd Century, medicine would have progressed to the point that 100 looked like 50.

I don't agree with him. The average lifespan for a human, barring incident or extreme illness, has been a steady 70-80 for some 10,000-100,000 years. Even with the leaps and bounds in medicine in the last 100 years or so, that hasn't changed. Making those leaps and bounds easier, simpler and more efficient to use, which is what 23rd century medicine was all about, really, won't make that much difference. As Skywalker said, it wasn't until the 24th century that more, better leaps and bounds occur, extending the lifespan. For now, and in the 23rd century in Star Trek, medicine seems to be concentrating on making the years we do get more worthwhile.

Yeah, honestly, I don't think I agree with Byrne, either. Something like that would probably create a distance between the characters and the audience, no matter how much science fiction style sense it might make. David Gerrold once very perceptively wrote that Star Trek was not about 23rd century men, it was about 20th Century men in a 23rd Century world. For the sake of us being able to relate to the characters, that's how it's got to be.

That's why I always found the 1st season TNG characters talking about how damned superior they were to those poor dumb people in the 20th Century so off-putting. It didn't come off as "Oh, things are so much better now," it came off as "We're conceited bastards who are really full of ourselves." Who the hell wants to watch a show that's actively insulting its audience?

 

[Timo]

Was the average human life-span in the TOS era as long as the TNG era? If it wasn't, Starfleet retirement age might have been sooner.

FWIW, Trek does give us an official figure for retirement age - at least if we accept the cartoon take on it, and assume it hasn't been outdated in the intervening two decades or so. Robert April was forced to retire at 75, and while he may have championed against that, he may have failed.

Is this retirement age, higher than usual for a military service today (a quick googling gives about a decade less for extended service in the USN), a sign of increased lifespans, or at least increased productive lives? We don't hear of the ages of other characters affecting their careers in the 23rd century. In "The Deadly Years", the addled Kirk is deemed to be 60-72 years old in physical terms, and unfit to command, but we don't learn whether the former alone results in the latter, or whether Kirk just ages very poorly for a modern human.

We don't know how long 23rd century humans live. We can't say there have been no advances - for all we know, Vulcans introduced a longevity pill in 2063 already, and everybody has been reaching 130-150 since, barring accidents and illnesses and failure to get that miracle pill every Thursday. But we have no explicit cases of people living long, either. Except for Flint, but him living for thousands of years and being considered a freak for that doesn't mean living for 150 years would be uncommon.

David Gerrold once very perceptively wrote that Star Trek was not about 23rd century men, it was about 20th Century men in a 23rd Century world.

Perhaps anybody joining Starfleet is a misfit, not just mentally but physically as well? Perhaps the knowledge that an early death awaits in any case drives people into choosing a profession where such a death is par for the course?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Magellan]

Something like that would probably create a distance between the characters and the audience, no matter how much science fiction style sense it might make. David Gerrold once very perceptively wrote that Star Trek was not about 23rd century men, it was about 20th Century men in a 23rd Century world. For the sake of us being able to relate to the characters, that's how it's got to be.

That is a great way to articulate how I feel when I see posters wanting a new Trek series to be a more realistic depiction of the future. We would never be able to relate to it.

If I was a betting man, I'd lay my money on a 23rd century man(if they would even be what we call human) living practically indefinite lifespans. Scientists will eventually understand why aging occurs and be able to reverse the process. In fact, it'll probably happen before commercial fusion power or a colony on Mars.

 

[Pauln6]

What's weirder is that so many of the characters have no living parents, even if parents have children much later, they should still be around in most cases. Picard is meant to be about 20 years older than Stewart though isn't he?

 

[RoJoHen]

Did we ever really get much info about the TOS character's parents? Sarek was obviously alive for a while. We saw McCoy's dad die in TFF, at which point it was clear that he lived to be a really old age. I don't think we ever really heard much of anything regarding the rest of the casts' family.

TNG is another story. We had plenty of references and actually met a lot of their parents throughout the run of the show. Riker's dad, Troi's mom, both of Worf's parents...I don't remember if we ever met Geordi's mom, but I know she was mentioned in at least one episode.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The oldest human character seen in Star Trek to have naturally aged (barring Flint) is McCoy, Kirk's near contemporary. If he hadn't fallen with that bridge, Kirk would presumably have a life expectancy similar to McCoy.

Did we ever really get much info about the TOS character's parents? Sarek was obviously alive for a while. We saw McCoy's dad die in TFF, at which point it was clear that he lived to be a really old age. I don't think we ever really heard much of anything regarding the rest of the casts' family.

TNG is another story. We had plenty of references and actually met a lot of their parents throughout the run of the show. Riker's dad, Troi's mom, both of Worf's parents...I don't remember if we ever met Geordi's mom, but I know she was mentioned in at least one episode.

We didn't get Kirk's parents info until 2009's Star Trek, and nothing really on any of the other TOS characters' parents (Chekov is presumably the son of an Andrei).

Captain Silva La Forge was a major focus of the episode "Interface". The episode also showed us Geordi's father and delved into his family life quite a bit. She was played by Madge Sinclair.

So, in canon, the parent count is this:

TOS
Kirk - Father: George (appears), Mother: Winona (appears)
Spock - Father: Sarek (appears), Mother: Amanda (appears)
McCoy - Father: David (appears)
Scott - ?
Uhura - ?
Sulu - ?
Chekov - Father: Andrei (implied)
Chapel - ?
Rand - ?

TAS
Arex - ?
M'Ress - ?

TNG
Picard - Father: Maurice (appears), Mother: Yvette (appears)
Riker - Father: Kyle (appears), Mother: Betty (mention)
La Forge - Father: Edward (appears), Mother: Silva (appears)
Yar - ?
Worf - Father: Mogh (mention), Mother: ? - Foster Father: Sergey (appears), Foster Mother: Helena (appears)
Beverly Crusher - Father: Paul (mention), Mother: Isabel (mention)
Troi - Father: Ian (appears), Mother: Lwaxana (appears)
Data - Father: Noonien (appears), Mother: Juliana (appears)
Wesley Crusher - Father: Jack (appears), Mother: Beverly (appears)

DS9
Sisko - Father: Joseph (appears), Mother: Sarah (appears) - Stepmother: ? (mention)
Odo - ?
Ezri Dax - Father: Lazo (mention), Mother: Yanas (appears)
Bashir - Father: Richard (appears), Mother: Amsha (appears)
Jadzia Dax - Father: Kela (mention)
Jake Sisko - Father: Benjamin (appears), Mother: Jennifer (appears)
O'Brien - Father: Michael (mention), Mother: ? (mention)
Quark - Father: Keldar (mention), Mother: Ishka (appears)
Kira - Father: Taban (appears), Mother: Meru (appears)

VOY
Janeway - Father: ? (appears)
Chakotay - Father: Kolopak (appears)
Torres - Father: John (appears), Mother: Miral (appears)
Kes - Father: Benaren (appears), Mother: Martis (appears)
Paris - Father: Owen (appears)
Neelix - ?
Doctor - Father: Lewis (appears)
Tuvok - Mother: T'Meni (mention)
Seven - Father: Magnus (appears), Mother: Erin (appears)
Kim - Father: John (appears), Mother: Mary (appears)

ENT
Archer - Father: Henry (appears), Mother: Sally (mention)
Phlox - ?
T'Pol - Mother: T'Les (appears)
Reed - Father: Stuart (appears), Mother: Mary (appears)
Mayweather - Father: ? (mention), Mother: Rianna (appears)
Sato - Father: ? (appears), Mother: ? (mention)
Tucker - Father: Charles (mention)

So, the Original Series (and Animated Series) have by far revealed the least of its main characters' parentage. But that was part of the overall vagueness to any background outside of the main three. And really outside of Spock, since we only learn about Kirk and McCoy's parentage in the movies.

 

[Paradise City]

I don't think they put much thought into what human life span would be until they needed a justification for McCoy being on TNG. It would be intuitive for them to able to squeeze out a few decades more in the future. A few decades more of life and fitness.

That said Kirk was covering himself accolades, a grateful starfleet gave him a promotion to Admiral. But what do Admirals do? Sit behind desks and acquire migraines from boring conferences.

That transition from an action-packed life to plodding deskwork would make any man feel old.

I think where this comes out isn't with Star Trek II but Star Trek VI. He looks old in VI. Too old for 2293 I believe. I would've set that film in 2310/20 or something like that.

 

[Pauln6]

The oldest human character seen in Star Trek to have naturally aged (barring Flint) is McCoy, Kirk's near contemporary. If he hadn't fallen with that bridge, Kirk would presumably have a life expectancy similar to McCoy.

Did we ever really get much info about the TOS character's parents? Sarek was obviously alive for a while. We saw McCoy's dad die in TFF, at which point it was clear that he lived to be a really old age. I don't think we ever really heard much of anything regarding the rest of the casts' family.

TNG is another story. We had plenty of references and actually met a lot of their parents throughout the run of the show. Riker's dad, Troi's mom, both of Worf's parents...I don't remember if we ever met Geordi's mom, but I know she was mentioned in at least one episode.

We didn't get Kirk's parents info until 2009's Star Trek, and nothing really on any of the other TOS characters' parents (Chekov is presumably the son of an Andrei).

Captain Silva La Forge was a major focus of the episode "Interface". The episode also showed us Geordi's father and delved into his family life quite a bit. She was played by Madge Sinclair.

So, in canon, the parent count is this:

TOS
Kirk - Father: George (appears), Mother: Winona (appears)
Spock - Father: Sarek (appears), Mother: Amanda (appears)
McCoy - Father: David (appears)
Scott - ?
Uhura - ?
Sulu - ?
Chekov - Father: Andrei (implied)
Chapel - ?
Rand - ?

TAS
Arex - ?
M'Ress - ?

TNG
Picard - Father: Maurice (appears), Mother: Yvette (appears)
Riker - Father: Kyle (appears), Mother: Betty (mention)
La Forge - Father: Edward (appears), Mother: Silva (appears)
Yar - ?
Worf - Father: Mogh (mention), Mother: ? - Foster Father: Sergey (appears), Foster Mother: Helena (appears)
Beverly Crusher - Father: Paul (mention), Mother: Isabel (mention)
Troi - Father: Ian (appears), Mother: Lwaxana (appears)
Data - Father: Noonien (appears), Mother: Juliana (appears)
Wesley Crusher - Father: Jack (appears), Mother: Beverly (appears)

DS9
Sisko - Father: Joseph (appears), Mother: Sarah (appears) - Stepmother: ? (mention)
Odo - ?
Ezri Dax - Father: Lazo (mention), Mother: Yanas (appears)
Bashir - Father: Richard (appears), Mother: Amsha (appears)
Jadzia Dax - Father: Kela (mention)
Jake Sisko - Father: Benjamin (appears), Mother: Jennifer (appears)
O'Brien - Father: Michael (mention), Mother: ? (mention)
Quark - Father: Keldar (mention), Mother: Ishka (appears)
Kira - Father: Taban (appears), Mother: Meru (appears)

VOY
Janeway - Father: ? (appears)
Chakotay - Father: Kolopak (appears)
Torres - Father: John (appears), Mother: Miral (appears)
Kes - Father: Benaren (appears), Mother: Martis (appears)
Paris - Father: Owen (appears)
Neelix - ?
Doctor - Father: Lewis (appears)
Tuvok - Mother: T'Meni (mention)
Seven - Father: Magnus (appears), Mother: Erin (appears)
Kim - Father: John (appears), Mother: Mary (appears)

ENT
Archer - Father: Henry (appears), Mother: Sally (mention)
Phlox - ?
T'Pol - Mother: T'Les (appears)
Reed - Father: Stuart (appears), Mother: Mary (appears)
Mayweather - Father: ? (mention), Mother: Rianna (appears)
Sato - Father: ? (appears), Mother: ? (mention)
Tucker - Father: Charles (mention)

So, the Original Series (and Animated Series) have by far revealed the least of its main characters' parentage. But that was part of the overall vagueness to any background outside of the main three. And really outside of Spock, since we only learn about Kirk and McCoy's parentage in the movies.

Yeah but go back through the list and change appears to 'deceased' where appropriate and you see a very different picture considering how young these characters are.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Excellent points. Thanks for the response.

Thanks. I think TWOK was so carefully plotted that Kirk's anxiety all point to purpose, rather than the typical aging issues one might deal with at age 50.

Comic book artist and STAR TREK NEW VISIONS creator John Byrne has suggested that they should've said that Kirk was around 100 in TWOK, as by the 23rd Century, medicine would have progressed to the point that 100 looked like 50.

Thankfully, the ST creators behind the movie would never adopt such a ridiculous idea. One of the major, relatable keys to ST's success since TOS was characters being regular people despite their fantastic settings. It was enough that ST dealt with alien contact and amazing situations. It was enough that it was a far future technological wonderland, but the human characters had to remain--human, as the link and guide through it all.

Having humans with access to fountain-of-youth-like means of preservation removes them from the relatable status to the average viewer. That's Star Trek writing 101: the human protagonists have to be human, otherwise, there's a natural disconnect to acceptance, and you end up with slab-cold characters like that in the Star Wars prequels.

 

[FormerLurker]

The oldest human character seen in Star Trek to have naturally aged (barring Flint) is McCoy, Kirk's near contemporary. If he hadn't fallen with that bridge, Kirk would presumably have a life expectancy similar to McCoy.

Did we ever really get much info about the TOS character's parents? Sarek was obviously alive for a while. We saw McCoy's dad die in TFF, at which point it was clear that he lived to be a really old age. I don't think we ever really heard much of anything regarding the rest of the casts' family.

TNG is another story. We had plenty of references and actually met a lot of their parents throughout the run of the show. Riker's dad, Troi's mom, both of Worf's parents...I don't remember if we ever met Geordi's mom, but I know she was mentioned in at least one episode.

We didn't get Kirk's parents info until 2009's Star Trek, and nothing really on any of the other TOS characters' parents (Chekov is presumably the son of an Andrei).

Captain Silva La Forge was a major focus of the episode "Interface". The episode also showed us Geordi's father and delved into his family life quite a bit. She was played by Madge Sinclair.

So, in canon, the parent count is this:

TOS
Kirk - Father: George (appears), Mother: Winona (appears)
Spock - Father: Sarek (appears), Mother: Amanda (appears)
McCoy - Father: David (appears)
Scott - ?
Uhura - ?
Sulu - ?
Chekov - Father: Andrei (implied)
Chapel - ?
Rand - ?

TAS
Arex - ?
M'Ress - ?

TNG
Picard - Father: Maurice (appears), Mother: Yvette (appears)
Riker - Father: Kyle (appears), Mother: Betty (mention)
La Forge - Father: Edward (appears), Mother: Silva (appears)
Yar - ?
Worf - Father: Mogh (mention), Mother: ? - Foster Father: Sergey (appears), Foster Mother: Helena (appears)
Beverly Crusher - Father: Paul (mention), Mother: Isabel (mention)
Troi - Father: Ian (appears), Mother: Lwaxana (appears)
Data - Father: Noonien (appears), Mother: Juliana (appears)
Wesley Crusher - Father: Jack (appears), Mother: Beverly (appears)

DS9
Sisko - Father: Joseph (appears), Mother: Sarah (appears) - Stepmother: ? (mention)
Odo - ?
Ezri Dax - Father: Lazo (mention), Mother: Yanas (appears)
Bashir - Father: Richard (appears), Mother: Amsha (appears)
Jadzia Dax - Father: Kela (mention)
Jake Sisko - Father: Benjamin (appears), Mother: Jennifer (appears)
O'Brien - Father: Michael (mention), Mother: ? (mention)
Quark - Father: Keldar (mention), Mother: Ishka (appears)
Kira - Father: Taban (appears), Mother: Meru (appears)

VOY
Janeway - Father: ? (appears)
Chakotay - Father: Kolopak (appears)
Torres - Father: John (appears), Mother: Miral (appears)
Kes - Father: Benaren (appears), Mother: Martis (appears)
Paris - Father: Owen (appears)
Neelix - ?
Doctor - Father: Lewis (appears)
Tuvok - Mother: T'Meni (mention)
Seven - Father: Magnus (appears), Mother: Erin (appears)
Kim - Father: John (appears), Mother: Mary (appears)

ENT
Archer - Father: Henry (appears), Mother: Sally (mention)
Phlox - ?
T'Pol - Mother: T'Les (appears)
Reed - Father: Stuart (appears), Mother: Mary (appears)
Mayweather - Father: ? (mention), Mother: Rianna (appears)
Sato - Father: ? (appears), Mother: ? (mention)
Tucker - Father: Charles (mention)

So, the Original Series (and Animated Series) have by far revealed the least of its main characters' parentage. But that was part of the overall vagueness to any background outside of the main three. And really outside of Spock, since we only learn about Kirk and McCoy's parentage in the movies.

Yeah but go back through the list and change appears to 'deceased' where appropriate and you see a very different picture considering how young these characters are.

Harry Kim's parents were John and Mary? Really? That guy never got any respect, did he?

 

[Timo]

One of the major, relatable keys to ST's success since TOS was characters being regular people despite their fantastic settings.

And Forbidden Planet had already shown what it took to make that plausible in the futuristic-professional setting: the relatable lead character had to be described as a retard of sorts, not just by the villain but by the lead's rather unsympathetic colleagues as well.

That's Star Trek writing 101: the human protagonists have to be human, otherwise, there's a natural disconnect to acceptance

Strike "human", though. If Worf, Kira or Tuvok weren't shown being human, those shows would flop, too. Or at least the writers and actors appeared to have a very real fear of that.

It really appeared baseless, though, as Worf's popularity skyrocketed whenever he was being unapologetically alien. And Vulcans apparently get groupies because of their inhuman qualities specifically. Any good character benefits from a bit of assassination, it seems.

and you end up with slab-cold characters like that in the Star Wars prequels.

The prequels could have done alien - we don't need to be Jedi in order to enjoy following the adventures of the Jedi, and we can enjoy said adventures even if we loathe the perverse lifestyle, wacko philosophy and inhuman scheming. It just isn't helpful to write characters who are slab-cold and then cast actors who are worse, or direct decent pros to this effect.

Yoda never was "human". He was "Asian wiseguy stereotype", which is about as far removed from humanity as one can get, but he still was a great character (even in the dismal prequels). And indeed, watch Asian visual storytelling and meet the same inhuman stereotypes there, used to great effect despite the total lack of relatability.

Really, believing that our heroes are three centuries old would have been no harder to accept ultimately than that they are spacemen. That's a premise that gets a story going and can then be forgotten; it's not as if Trek ever really worked the "we are spacemen" angle and its practical implications into the characters, either.

Timo Saloniemi