Khan and the Eugenics War

[Guy Gardener]

Are you ok?

Cant sleep.

Breeding farms are not a new idea in science fiction.

The Super men had 3 possible long term plausible agendas for the future of mankind.

1. In 100 years everyone on the planet will be a Superman producing superbabies.

2. In 40 years everyone on the planet will be a Superman producing superbabies.

3. In 10 years everyone on the planet will be a Superman producing superbabies.

 

[Noname Given]

TOS said there was no mass killings under Khan’s rule, and he only attacked in self-defence. But later shows and movies make it sound like he was as bad as Hitler.

Space Seed

WRT 'mass killings', that's not what was said (see highlighted line):

SPOCK: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East.
MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.
SCOTT: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one.
KIRK: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen, in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring.
SPOCK: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is
KIRK: Mister Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless.
SCOTT: There were no massacres under his rule.
SPOCK: And as little freedom.
MCCOY: No wars until he was attacked.

But Spock also said this:

SPOCK: Your Earth was on the verge of a dark ages. Whole populations were being bombed out of existence. A group of criminals could have been dealt with far more efficiently than wasting one of their most advanced spaceships.

Also, do you think Khan Noonian Singh bloodlessly became (per Spock): "...absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world. From Asia through the Middle East." ?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

benevolent dictator

There is no such thing.

 

[Yistaan]

There is no such thing.

Aragorn.

I mean, how come the Shire has a democracy and Gondor does not? And they say hobbits are backwards.

 

[NCC-73515]

The simplest explanation is that 1990s Khan actually was a benevolent dictator and the other shows that portray him as a bloodthirsty tyrant in fact take place with the newly established 2022 Khan who actually is a murderous maniac. Or as I mentioned in another thread, John Gill's (the guy who tried to turn an alien planet into WW2 Germany) twisted history lectures at Starfleet Academy influenced Kirk, Scotty, etc.'s way of thinking.

TOS Khan had no massacres under his rule and was "the best" of the dictators.
SNW Khan was traumatized as a kid by seeing someone get shot, blood sprayed in his face, then a strange armed ladey disappearing in a flash of light. He became a tyrant monster with massacre.
It all makes sense, and the twist is that La'an, who suffered so much being his descendant, actually caused him to be worse

Exactly. Look at what Khan does in the episode. Look at how quickly he loses his temper and becomes violent whenever anyone crosses him. Look at how much he uses torture as an interrogation tactic. Now think about what kind of people would willingly follow such a man.

I believe there had to be massacres under Khan's rule, but they were largely covered up. Hell, Spock outright says there were "whole populations bombed out of existence." What is that if not massacring people?

There were several others (those on the picture) who did the bombings

 

[JonnyQuest037]

There were several others (those on the picture) who did the bombings

When is that ever said? And what is "the picture" you're referring to?

 

[Guy Gardener]

When is that ever said? And what is "the picture" you're referring to?

There's a picture of 8 or so children in Kahn's room.

His genetic contemporaries.

 

[DEWLine]

I do remember that image.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There were several others (those on the picture) who did the bombings

We’ve no idea who did the bombings or if they are in that picture. Might be a picture of Khan’s personal cohort and future shipmates Rodriguez, Ling, McPherson, Otto and Joachim

 

[NCC-73515]

When is that ever said? And what is "the picture" you're referring to?

not everything needs to be said to still happen or have happened. do you think they never go to the bathroom because they never say so?

 

[Guy Gardener]

not everything needs to be said to still happen or have happened. do you think they never go to the bathroom because they never say so?

We saw urination in First Contact.

The Borg remove Penises, and other perfunctory skin tags.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

not everything needs to be said to still happen or have happened. do you think they never go to the bathroom because they never say so?

Please don't get snarky with me. You stated "there were several others who did the bombings" as a definite fact, as if it were something the episode established. I was just asking you to clarify where in the episode they said that.

 

[NCC-73515]

Khantext is for Singhs:


SPOCK: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

KHAN: I know something of those years. Remember, it was a time of great dreams, of great aspiration.
SPOCK: Under dozens of petty dictatorships.

MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.

This is the picture that was part of the dialog and filled the whole screen...

 

[TerryTrek]

Lol. They pasted that kid actor's face on someone's random school picture.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Khantext is for Singhs:


SPOCK: In 1993, a group of these young supermen did seize power simultaneously in over forty nations.

KHAN: I know something of those years. Remember, it was a time of great dreams, of great aspiration.
SPOCK: Under dozens of petty dictatorships.

MCCOY: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown.

This is the picture that was part of the dialog and filled the whole screen...

Half of them are Superwomen.

 

[Set Harth]

SNW Khan was traumatized as a kid by seeing someone get shot, blood sprayed in his face, then a strange armed ladey disappearing in a flash of light. He became a tyrant monster with massacre.
It all makes sense, and the twist is that La'an, who suffered so much being his descendant, actually caused him to be worse

I'm getting Looper flashbacks

 

[DaveyNY]

There's always the possibility that what 'History' recorded and what actually happened, were two different things.

300 years after a terrible World War and the fact that even the characters indicate the records are spotty, should put a very large grain of salt on everything that was said in that conversation.

Their 'facts' are the recordings of people who lived through a very traumatic experience and are more than likely skewed toward that particular fact.

 

[fireproof78]

There's always the possibility that what 'History' recorded and what actually happened, were two different things.

300 years after a terrible World War and the fact that even the characters indicate the records are spotty, should put a very large grain of salt on everything that was said in that conversation.

I mean...it should but it's being treated as unvarnished truth that Khan was somehow a merciful dictator who only killed when necessary.

Save for what he tried to do to Kirk and company. That was completely different.

 

[DaveyNY]

I mean...it should but it's being treated as unvarnished truth that Khan was somehow a merciful dictator who only killed when necessary.

Save for what he tried to do to Kirk and company. That was completely different.

I'm pretty sure that by the end of that episode, Kirk and Company had completely adjusted their initial thoughts about Khan and his 'history'.

 

[Tuskin38]

There's always the possibility that what 'History' recorded and what actually happened, were two different things.

300 years after a terrible World War and the fact that even the characters indicate the records are spotty, should put a very large grain of salt on everything that was said in that conversation.

Their 'facts' are the recordings of people who lived through a very traumatic experience and are more than likely skewed toward that particular fact.

I mean the creator of the show already said they moved the events up because of time travel. It's also mentioned in the episode.

It isn't fragmentary records here being wrong. The timeline was changed.