Kasidy Yates did nothing illegal

[Crewman6]

Or Picard was simply trying to drive home the severity of the decision. Or he was mistaken.
Or he was correct but the Federation changed their minds and arranged a deal so that Federation citizens remained so. Picard's words were right at the beginning of the situation, before all the wrinkles could be ironed out.

Allow me to quote Picard himself in Preemptive Strike...

"To all Maquis ships. Call off your attack or we will be forced to engage you. You are Federation citizens. Your actions are in violation of our treaty with the Cardassians. Call off your attack."

Those are true quotes, of course. But the inconsistency is nothing if not consistent.

From the very episode we're discussing:

EDDINGTON
If she's really a Maquis, then
she's no longer a Federation
citizen.
And in "Blaze of Glory"

EDDINGTON
The Maquis colonies were going to
declare themselves an independent
nation.

To me, it seems like the writers honestly forgot the Maquis were supposed to have abandoned their UFP citizenry as established in Journey's End, which was the initial intent (as it was the episode that laid all the groundwork.) But, of course it's all a bit muddy.

By ignoring or forgetting that original intention and insisting that they are still "members of the Federation", it makes it justifiable for Starfleet/the UFP to keep going after them across all three series.

 

[Crewman6]

Have you given any thought to writing up an "off the record" scenario depicting Yates' Federation advocate's argument in her favor?

Like fan fic? No. I've taken my arguments as far as I'd like.

If Star Trek could infinitely fund writer royalties and/or accommodate the increased pay of extras with many lines/recurring actors, it would be a very different franchise.

I'm not sure I know what you mean.

 

[Tosk]

Those are true quotes, of course. But the inconsistency is nothing if not consistent.

From the very episode we're discussing:

EDDINGTON
If she's really a Maquis, then
she's no longer a Federation
citizen.
And in "Blaze of Glory"

EDDINGTON
The Maquis colonies were going to
declare themselves an independent
nation.

To me, it seems like the writers honestly forgot the Maquis were supposed to have abandoned their UFP citizenry as established in Journey's End, which was the initial intent (as it was the episode that laid all the groundwork.) But, of course it's all a bit muddy.

By ignoring or forgetting that original intention and insisting that they are still "members of the Federation", it makes it justifiable for Starfleet/the UFP to keep going after them across all three series.

Politics can be complicated. I choose to believe the situation was ever-changing.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Politics can be complicated. I choose to believe the situation was ever-changing.

The entire theme of the Maquis is that reality often leads to messy results, not broad principles and clean cut boundaries.

 

[Captrek]

Yes, Star Trek is routinely wildly inconsistent. It's a sprawling franchise with a million tiny details. It's written by people, who, last time I checked, are fallible.

More to the point, people who don’t prioritize consistency. Star Wars is a sprawling franchise with a million tiny details that, with minor exceptions, are very consistent. Star Trek embraces retcons. It’s a different animal.

You want to try to reconcile “The Host” with DS9? I don’t,

EDDINGTON
If she's really a Maquis, then
she's no longer a Federation
citizen.

That line troubles me. Of course she’s a citizen. She’s a suspected smuggler, and if the Maquis are a Federation enemy she’s also a suspected traitor. But even if the penalty for treason includes loss of citizenship (yikes!) she should still be entitled to due process.

 

[Crewman6]

More to the point, people who don’t prioritize consistency. Star Wars is a sprawling franchise with a million tiny details that, with minor exceptions, are very consistent. Star Trek embraces retcons. It’s a different animal.

Star Wars has made the effort to keep everything consistently canonical, but has certainly had its share of retcons, most notably Disney chucking all of the old EU once they purchased the property.

And, even if you factor in the animated series (clone wars has quite a lot of episodes!), Trek dwarfs Star Trek when it comes to sheer amount of hours of filmed entertainment. It's much, much harder to keep it all remotely straight, especially with wildly different creative teams across a larger span of time than SW has existed for.

You want to try to reconcile “The Host” with DS9? I don’t,

That line troubles me. Of course she’s a citizen. She’s a suspected smuggler, and if the Maquis are a Federation enemy she’s also a suspected traitor. But even if the penalty for treason includes loss of citizenship (yikes!) she should still be entitled to due process.

I agree. I hated that line of Eddington, it made no sense at all. Committing a crime doesn't rob you of citizenship. I think the only charitable interpretation is that, if we assume that the rest of the Maquis - aka individuals living in Cardassian-controlled colonies, are no longer legally considered Fed citizens, then maybe Eddington is assuming any Maquis-affiliated people also, I dunno, renounced their citizenship or somehow also became legal residents of those DMZ colonies, too.

It honestly doesn't make a lick of sense however you slice it, but it does point to the inconsistency across the show(s) about what the legal status of Maquis/DMZ inhabitants was, which is why I quoted it. Not because I think there's any logic to it!

 

[Paul Weaver]

And, even if you factor in the animated series (clone wars has quite a lot of episodes!)

Total Star Wars tv output is 234 hours, about 1/3 of Star Trek.

Trek reached that milestone about 1994.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The entire theme of the Maquis is that reality often leads to messy results, not broad principles and clean cut boundaries.

Voyager want's you to hold her beer.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Voyager want's you to hold her beer.

Are you sure?

After a few episodes, Voyager, by fiat, took the safe route, putting the Maquis fighters into neatly pressed uniforms and declared the ship one happy crew. Oh, there were times people remembered the Maquis weren't really Starfleet, but those were quite few.

So Voyager did nothing crazy. It took a few sips of TNG's beer, did a little drunken moralizing, then blacked out. It was a lightweight.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Are you sure?

After a few episodes, Voyager, by fiat, took the safe route, putting the Maquis fighters into neatly pressed uniforms and declared the ship one happy crew. Oh, there were times people remembered the Maquis weren't really Starfleet, but those were quite few.

So Voyager did nothing crazy. It took a few sips of TNG's beer, did a little drunken moralizing, then blacked out. It was a lightweight.

I might be using the phrase wrong, but I take "hold my beer" to mean "f*ck you, you're wrong" or "f*ck you, I can do that better" or "f*ck you, let me show you how someone in grown up pants does that limp-d*ck" or "F*ck you lets rumble".

You qualified a few traits that a Maquis is not, which is a lie, if you've ever seen any Voyager.

 

[Ragitsu]

How much friction can be expected on a ship seventy-odd years from home? Seventy-odd years from any territory which might matter to the Maquis? Was there supposed to be a constant boil - or even a mere simmer - from Point A to Point B? Wouldn't that have gotten old real fast?

 

[Set Harth]

Literally what ICE is doing right now.

that's not what literally means

 

[Bad Thoughts]

How much friction can be expected on a ship seventy-odd years from home? Seventy-odd years from any territory which might matter to the Maquis? Was there supposed to be a constant boil - or even a mere simmer - from Point A to Point B? Wouldn't that have gotten old real fast?

Ask Ronald Moore.

 

[fireproof78]

How much friction can be expected on a ship seventy-odd years from home? Seventy-odd years from any territory which might matter to the Maquis? Was there supposed to be a constant boil - or even a mere simmer - from Point A to Point B? Wouldn't that have gotten old real fast?

Maybe? It can worked from different directions. Better than not happening at all save for the occasional plot point.

 

[DonIago]

I'm still a little bothered by the implication that Janeway effectively conscripted the Maquis, and presumably would have done the same to the Borg children and Naomi Wildman. Presumably on Voyager there are no free rides?

Which is to say that the show took the easy way out and depicted everyone who wasn't Starfleet as being willing and able to serve, but I don't think that's how life works.

Janeway was apparently willing to lock up Suder in a cabin for, presumably, the rest of his life, but what would she have done if it turned out some of the Maquis were ill-suited to be Starfleet because of mental illness or other issues, or were causing problems but not on the level of violent crimes? She can't exactly confine everyone to quarters, and while offering to off-load anyone who doesn't seem happy on the ship seems like a humane option, it seems rather less humane when Voyager is in the middle of Kazon or Vidiian or Borg space.

I'm not saying there was a good option; just that it bothers me a little that the show didn't even take a moment to ponder the question.

 

[Tosk]

Presumably on Voyager there are no free rides?

Explicitly from day one.

Neelix "Well, you see, that's what we wanted to discuss. We'd like to go with you."
Janeway "I'm sorry. This isn't a passenger ship."

 

[Captrek]

I'm still a little bothered by the implication that Janeway effectively conscripted the Maquis, and presumably would have done the same to the Borg children and Naomi Wildman. Presumably on Voyager there are no free rides?

Which is to say that the show took the easy way out and depicted everyone who wasn't Starfleet as being willing and able to serve, but I don't think that's how life works.

Janeway was apparently willing to lock up Suder in a cabin for, presumably, the rest of his life, but what would she have done if it turned out some of the Maquis were ill-suited to be Starfleet because of mental illness or other issues, or were causing problems but not on the level of violent crimes? She can't exactly confine everyone to quarters, and while offering to off-load anyone who doesn't seem happy on the ship seems like a humane option, it seems rather less humane when Voyager is in the middle of Kazon or Vidiian or Borg space.

I'm not saying there was a good option; just that it bothers me a little that the show didn't even take a moment to ponder the question.

The notion that they could be “a Starfleet vessel” when out of contact with the Federation and not anticipating resumption of communications any time soon just doesn’t work. Starfleet captains are accountable — to superior officers, to Starfleet Command, to Starfleet courts. Janeway was accountable to nobody. She was more a monarch than a captain.

When you don’t have the Federation, you have another government, like it or not. They never really address what that form of government ought to be. Janeway says “I can’t run this ship like a democracy,” so absolute monarchy it is.

 

[Crewman6]

How much friction can be expected on a ship seventy-odd years from home? Seventy-odd years from any territory which might matter to the Maquis? Was there supposed to be a constant boil - or even a mere simmer - from Point A to Point B? Wouldn't that have gotten old real fast?

yes, but that was literally the intent of the show, as stated constantly by the creators. "Hey, we're throwing together these two wildly different crews who will have no choice but to get along despite their huge differences!"

You're right, their circumstances make their (minor-ish) differences utterly moot, but that's not how the show was conceived and sold. They might as well not even have bothered, since the Maquis "conflict" is meaningfully retired at the end of the pilot and Berman & Co spent numerous hours in multiple different Trek shows setting up the Maquis specifically for Voyager.

But the Maquis episodes in DS9 and even TNG were far more compelling than anything Voyager actually did with them.

 

[DonIago]

Perhaps it's ironic that while TNG is the show known for, "We're under attack! Let's talk about it for five minutes..." VOY had the opportunity to lean into its ostensible premise and show the Starfleet and Maquis crews making a real effort to work together and to find compromises despite their differences.