JemHadar were supposed to be Klingons! Tell me I'm wrong?
- Thread starter TheMasterOfOrion
- Start date
Yes the species had women, what happened was the DS9 writers attempted to make them unique from Klingons by saying they were sexless. However this is flawed because before you started cloning or enhancing some uber species there has to be a female to begin with!!
unless the JemHader were like robots - an invention or a creation...but this is not the word the writers used, the DS9 writers always used the term 'engineered' which means there were females to begin with before soldiers came. Not withstading the women actors played the roles of young JemHadar. IMO the whole JemHadar mess came because the DS9 writers didn't have the guts to make the Klingons bad guys and were afraid it would have made Worf's life story way too complicated
remind me again which one had humor and which ones didn't. I found them both equally as funny
warrior race
loyalty to their Empire
both have a feud with the Romulans
both are reluctant to take prisoners
when they do take prisoners both use Hard labor and Internment Camps
both live to die in battle
both follow an honor code
both go into breserker frenzy
both fight to the death
great hand-to-hand combat skills
three times the strength of normal humans.
both Klingon and JemHadar appear quiet oafish when reparing their own technology
barbarian like society
settle disputes via duels
the weapons they used to settle disputes almost look exactly the same
military tactics obsessed with camouflage/cloaking
kamikaze/jihad culture
....really need I go on and bore you by counting to 100
I respect people who disagree with me,
maybe you guys not just think they were different and maybe you guys know the Klingon and JemHader were always meant to be two different stories.
However this is not how I feel, I think the species names were changed in haste and I have seen nothing so far that proves me wrong.
But we don't know that the Jem'Hadar were an original species. And clones don't "need" women- Yelgrun (a Vorta) said he never had parents, so it stands to reason the Jem'Hadar don't need women either. All they need is genetic material, and that can be created. Yes, there were Vorta women, but not necessary for their to be Vorta. And if the Jem'hadar are some kind of aggregate of aliens and animals perhaps, then no female Jem'Hadar as such need exist. That being said, I don't think of them as "sexless" I still think of them as men. And the Klingons were "bad guys" as seen by their war with the Cardassians, and the Federation. But DS9 writers had had the Klingons as an enemy for far too long, relations were going backwards. It was time for the Federation and the Klingons to go beyond, for the friendship after Fed aid after Praxis to mean something.
I found them both amusing- the dialogue, but when's the last time you saw a Jem'Hadar crack a joke? In all the times in DS9 and VOY, know how many times we've seen a Jem'Hadar smile? I counted. IIRC, the number is 5. Depends on how often you count Ometi'klan smirking at Sisko.
warrior race
loyalty to their Empire
both have a feud with the Romulans
both are reluctant to take prisoners
when they do take prisoners both use Hard labor and Internment Camps
both live to die in battle
both follow an honor code
both go into breserker frenzy
both fight to the death
great hand-to-hand combat skills
three times the strength of normal humans.
both Klingon and JemHadar appear quiet oafish when reparing their own technology
barbarian like society
settle disputes via duels
the weapons they used to settle disputes almost look exactly the same
military tactics obsessed with camouflage/cloaking
kamikaze/jihad culture
....really need I go on and bore you by counting to 100
I respect people who disagree with me,
maybe you guys not just think they were different and maybe you guys know the Klingon and JemHader were always meant to be two different stories.
However this is not how I feel, I think the species names were changed in haste and I have seen nothing so far that proves me wrong.[/quote]
You think the species names were changed in haste? How so? The Klingons were known since TOS. And your thread title says "Tell me I'm wrong" so you must want a discussion.
There is no "jihad" nature to the Jem'Hadar- some approximate their genetically engineered loyalty to the Founders to what some species they have observed behave towards their gods. The Jem'Hadar simply fight when they are told, its not the same as believing they'll receive a 72 virgins for it.
The Jem'Hadar are soldiers, like the Klingons, but Andorians make good warriors too.
They don't have a "feud" with the Romulans other than the botched attack by the TS. The Romulans almost sided with the Dominion, like the Cardassians did.
The Jem'Hadar have tons of intern camps for prisonners. And take them when they see fit.
I don't remember seeing a Dominion labour camp... which episode?
The Jem'Hadar don't follow an "honour code" they are simply obedient. The only truly "honourable" Jem'Hadar we've seen is Ikat'ika and arguably (IMO) Ometi'klan.
The Jem'Hadar live to die in battle because they have no choice. The Klingons want to, its tradition- but not all them do. Some become chefs, for instance.
The "berzerker frenzy" isn't analogous. The Jem'Hadar only do it in withdrawl to a drug they need to survive. In fact, that animalistic tendancy may go to show the Jem'Hadar aren't really a "race" per se.
Just because they're good fighters like Klingons doesn't make them them the same. Also, Vulcans are 3X stronger than humans- Jem'Hadar are probably a lot stronger. A lot.
Jem'Hadar are excellent at technology. They can repair complicated equipement with few tools while suffering withdrawl.
Jem'Hadar do not settle things with duels.
They like bladed weapons, but their weapons are far more practical- Jem'Hadar just need to get the job done. Kar'takins are... triangles.
One cloaks ships, one cloakes themselves- but Jem'Hadar can't cloak while fighting. Its a stalking tactic.
Go to 100, I
Jem'Hadar. 
MasterofOrion said:
Nor have you or we seen anything that proves you right. Just wanted to point that out! I am pretty sure you had your mind made up before writing your first post, so the chances of anybody changing your mind were never good.
But of course you have a perfect right to your opinion, as do those of us who disagree with you. It's all in good fun, right?
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One interesting thing to note- While the Vorta are said to be 'cloned', the Jem Hadar are said to be 'bred'.
The difference seems to be that an exact adult copy of the Vorta, with all its predecessor's memories and programming is kept in certain numbers, while the Jem Hadar actually emerge from birthing chambers as infants.
That seems to imply that Jem Hadar are bred from scratch, genetic material that contains the engineering for what they'll turn into.
Another interesting thing is that in some ways the Jem Hadar have seemed to grudgingly respect the Klingons. In the episode that introduced the Jem Hadar, one asks Sisko about the Klingons stating that he heard they were 'effective warriors'.
Ometiklan's second frequently taunted Worf just to test how good in battle he was. And one refused to Kill Worf apparently impressed at how Worf refused to stay down.
That episode, along with the other mentioned seemed to express the uh oh, 'big confrontation' between the two warrior races and I always looked forward to seeing it..
The difference seems to be that an exact adult copy of the Vorta, with all its predecessor's memories and programming is kept in certain numbers, while the Jem Hadar actually emerge from birthing chambers as infants.
That seems to imply that Jem Hadar are bred from scratch, genetic material that contains the engineering for what they'll turn into.
Another interesting thing is that in some ways the Jem Hadar have seemed to grudgingly respect the Klingons. In the episode that introduced the Jem Hadar, one asks Sisko about the Klingons stating that he heard they were 'effective warriors'.
Ometiklan's second frequently taunted Worf just to test how good in battle he was. And one refused to Kill Worf apparently impressed at how Worf refused to stay down.
That episode, along with the other mentioned seemed to express the uh oh, 'big confrontation' between the two warrior races and I always looked forward to seeing it..
I don't see that the Dominion races are, in any way, reminiscent of Klingons.
However, the USS Voyager accidentally ended up in the Delta Quadrant, promising all-new alien species, the likes of which we'd never seen, and they spent two years encountering the Kazon, who were like Klingons on a bad hair day.
The original script for the episode, "The Jem'Hadar", mentions that the Jem'Hadar shroud is similar to that employed by the Tosk. It also notes that the Tosk were engineered as a gift to the Hunters as a reward for their loyalty to the Dominion, thus establishing that the Hunters and Tosk were Dominion members. Robert Hewitt Wolfe confirms this connection, saying, "'You want some Tosks that you can hunt, the Vorta will provide them for you.' The thought behind this is that the same people who breed the Tosks as gifts to the hunters, breed the Jem'Hadar as well." (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion) However, none of this was actually mentioned in the episode itself. (Memory Alpha)
I have no clue what the hell you're talking about. The Jem'Hadar and Klingon cultures are completely different. To put it simply, the Jem'Hadar are soldiers and Klingons are warriors.
Klingons are a culture built upon an obsession with normative violence, with the idea of proving personal bravery and honor by one's willingness to risk death and to bring just death to one's enemies. It's highly individualistic.
The Jem'Hadar, on the other hand, are a culture built upon service. They live to serve the Founders, and that's the basis of everything else. Their culture is fundamentally collectivist -- they even says, "We are dead. We go into battle to reclaim our lives." When the Jem'Hadar are betrayed by their Vorta in the episode "Rocks and Shoals," they even continue to obey his orders, knowing that he is issuing them in order to kill them all, because, as the Jem'Hadar First says to Sisko, "It is not my life to save, and it never was." They do violence, but their violence is in the service of their gods, not in the service of an individualistic desire for honor.
Having skimmed through this whole thread, I have to say I don't have much more to say than 'what?'
Others have already made points that I would make in the case against the Jem'Hadar being Klingon 'replacements.' If you simplify any of the 'brute' races from Trek, they're all pretty similar. However, the Jem'Hadar are a race bred as unquestioning soldiers by the 'anti-Federation' who fight, basically, for religious reasons, whereas the Klingons are a race of conquering warriors with their own Empire who believe in the expansion of the powerful (space Darwinsim if you will), and are far from blindly loyal to anyone. So on that level, their goals are completely different.
As to the original thought that the role the Jem'Hadar played was intended to be the Klingons, I don't see how this is possible. The Jem'Hadar were introduced as the warrior 'caste' of the Dominion prior to the introduction of the Federation's problems with the Klingons as seen in DS9 season four, so even if the Dominion War wasn't planned prior to the Klingon turmoil was presented, I don't see how you can argue that one literally stood-in for the other.
Others have already made points that I would make in the case against the Jem'Hadar being Klingon 'replacements.' If you simplify any of the 'brute' races from Trek, they're all pretty similar. However, the Jem'Hadar are a race bred as unquestioning soldiers by the 'anti-Federation' who fight, basically, for religious reasons, whereas the Klingons are a race of conquering warriors with their own Empire who believe in the expansion of the powerful (space Darwinsim if you will), and are far from blindly loyal to anyone. So on that level, their goals are completely different.
As to the original thought that the role the Jem'Hadar played was intended to be the Klingons, I don't see how this is possible. The Jem'Hadar were introduced as the warrior 'caste' of the Dominion prior to the introduction of the Federation's problems with the Klingons as seen in DS9 season four, so even if the Dominion War wasn't planned prior to the Klingon turmoil was presented, I don't see how you can argue that one literally stood-in for the other.
I think... I think this was shown in another thread, because I hadn't seen it- but it looks like those heavy ships were used during the last battle. Someone had pictures.
TBH I'm surprised it took them as long to decide to start making them as it did- even before the war...
But thanks- we'll make a note of your suggestion...
For the next time we come it your side of the galaxy.
None of this makes the least bit of sense, not in terms of what we saw on the show or what went on "behind the scenes". The Jem' Hadar were introduced long before Worf was brought onto the show, before we even saw a Founder or a Vorta (the Tosk are the first actual Dominion race we saw, but they were only featured in one episode then forgotten). The Jem' Hadar were actually fairly well developed throughout the series, featuring prominently in episodes like "The Jem' Hadar", "Hippocratic Oath", "To the Death", "In Purgatory's Shadow/By Armageddon's Light", "Rocks and Shoals", "One Little Ship" and so on.
Besides, there's no conceivable reason that the Klingons would just up and decide to work for the Dominion. The Dominion was obviously intended to be a couterpoint to the Federation. Instead of having multiple species working together, the Dominion was made up of many different races but controlled by one totalitarian group (the Founders).
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The Jem'Hadar seem to be a hybrid of Borg Drones and Imperial Stormtroopers, with strong overtones of the Jaffa from Stargate SG-1 - both the Jaffa and Jem'Hadar are in the sense more bureaucratic versions of the Klingons, plus they serve alien overlords who they perceive (in theory) as gods amongst mortals.
Why do I think that the modern day of Klingon is more Viking than Japanese Samurai?
The honor, and everything that I see from the modern day Klingon is different than the Japanese Samurai code of honor that I read from several Japanese old novels like Taiko and Musashi. But, they are more like Viking in several Viking movies that I watched.
Well, maybe I'm wrong about the ancient Japanese, and Taiko or Musashi (both were written by Eiji Yoshikawa) were wrong. But, just tell me. Who know about a race and their histories if not the race themselves. And I say, both Japanese classic literatures said that Japanese samurai were different than our TNG Klingon.
The honor, and everything that I see from the modern day Klingon is different than the Japanese Samurai code of honor that I read from several Japanese old novels like Taiko and Musashi. But, they are more like Viking in several Viking movies that I watched.
Well, maybe I'm wrong about the ancient Japanese, and Taiko or Musashi (both were written by Eiji Yoshikawa) were wrong. But, just tell me. Who know about a race and their histories if not the race themselves. And I say, both Japanese classic literatures said that Japanese samurai were different than our TNG Klingon.
I've always thought of them more as Vikings, too. So strangely, the original TOS intention was that they were more like the Mongol hordes - untrustworthy privateer/pirates before they were 'morphed' into the honorable TNG versions. It was originally the Romulans who were designed to be the honorable warrior-types.
@Praetor : I agree with you
Apples & Oranges....both fruits and thats about it. There are simmilarites to all species but these two were very much different.
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