So have many things here, e.g., the J/C thing. It's just that you don't like what it represents vis a vis the morals of Janeway. In Richard Kelly's "The Box" Janeway would have pressed the button if it suited her needs.
Janeway's Convient Morals
- Thread starter Zameaze
- Start date
So have many things here, e.g., the J/C thing. It's just that you don't like what it represents vis a vis the morals of Janeway. In Richard Kelly's "The Box" Janeway would have pressed the button if it suited her needs.
McCoy was hilarious in Star trek Three "That green blooded bastard is haunting me."
For the record. For the 1,000,000th time.
I am one who has argued against Janeway's actions as regards Tuvix since I first started discussing Voyager online.
I like both Tuvok and Neelix.
So you are both wrong when you reduce criticism of Janeway's actions to this.
I side with the Doctor, simply because, in terms of medical ethics (and medical ethics prevail here because it's a medical procedure), the Doctor is absolutely right: the individual has the right to determine his fate and choose whether or not to undergo a medical procedure.
Now, it's been argued that any human being would do whatever necessary to save a loved one, in Janeway's case Tuvok and Neelix.
Thing is, we might *want* to, but there is no way you can argue that it's moral to take one life to save another.
But he wasn't an individual, he was a collective. Retrieving Tuvok and Neelix was as equally as immoral as rescuing Seven of Nine form the Borg Collective considering how irrevocably changed the Borg became minus her physiological distinctiveness and the real time upgrades to her avatar speaking towards the unifying mind of their collective consiousness.
if Tuvix had been the result of a Borg synthesis, there wouldn't have been any argument.
Thinking about this as a weapon.
Imagine a "shield" comprised of the characteristics of these flowers that whenever assholes tried to send a boarding party of 200 soldiers to collect the crew for processing and enslavement if those 200 soldiers arrive on Voyager as one person who is completely freaked out?
if Tuvix had been the result of a Borg synthesis, there wouldn't have been any argument.
Thinking about this as a weapon.
Imagine a "shield" comprised of the characteristics of these flowers that whenever assholes tried to send a boarding party of 200 soldiers to collect the crew for processing and enslavement if those 200 soldiers arrive on Voyager as one person who is completely freaked out?
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is a brilliant argument. It's also one I've never heard before.
I'm going to back Guy up here and say that he's right.
I'll come back with more on Monday. (I generally can't post much on the weekends.)
We are all collectives. Each side of the brain has an expressive personality, with the dominant hemisphere usually winning the day. If you cut the corpus callosum, all sorts of interesting things can happen, e.g., Alien Hand Syndrome.
Tuvix was a functioning individual who deserved the rights of an individual.
I find your argument interesting, I just disagree.
The problem with your argument is that it can be used to back up Janeway's decision too. You can't legislate morality, prohibition proved that. What is moral in one mind is something completely different in another. Using “Tuvix” as an indication of poor morals is misleading and erroneous. I would have chosen the same as Janeway did, but that doesn’t in no way make me morally corrupt. It means that I value things that you do not, I value the rights of original beings over amalgamation. It means that I value the feelings of Kes, and even Tuvok’s wife and children.
It always surprises me that those that champion Tuvix, seem to disregard everyone else, every other life that will be disrupted and changed, devalue the loved ones left behind, and never consider Tuvok or Neelix themselves. All of these people have the right to live, and the right to continue their lives, and you all would disregard all of them for one.
This is what I find morally corrupt.
Brit
Then, by that logic, you value a zygote (being the original) over the adult (being the amalgamation); the parents (the originals) over their baby (being the amalgamation of the two).
Our moral imperative is to protect Tuvix, not murder him.
A zygote is an amalgamation, a combination of sperm and ovum. The parents are the original beings, and yes I value the Mother's life (which usually includes responsibilities for other children) over the unborn. Tuvix rights ended when his life came at the expense of others.
Brit
Brit
Well, Picard did shoot and kill one of his own crewman when he was infected by the Borg, despite the crewman stretching out his hand begging Picard to save him. If that isn't an edge I don't know what is
Withers
Captain
^That scene in First Contact always perturbed me. How effed up is that? "Captain... please... help..." "Sorry Ensign- you should have gotten a higher rank faster = / *shoots/kills*"
Tuvix: Janeway had a responsibility to Tuvok. She had a responsibility to protect his life and to ensure his safety. If he had become infected with a sentient virus, that didn't threaten his life but did change who he fundamentally was, it would have been her responsibility to purge it- even at the expense of the sentient virus. She was his Captain and that was her job.
While she often adopted the same tone in regard to Neelix she had no such official responsibility. So, in this case, when the two of them merged, she was going to have to do whatever it took to get Tuvok back. It just so happened that it (unfortunately) wouldn't involve sacrificing Neelix...just the the hybrid of what the two of them became.
I think Starfleet would have sided with Janeway (especially after reading reports about Neelix.) So, in this case, I'm with her. I can't imagine what the alternative could have been save for to lose two lives in exchange for one. Of course no one should have the power to weigh lives like that but, as often happens in the STU, a Captain had to and she made her choice.
Tuvix: Janeway had a responsibility to Tuvok. She had a responsibility to protect his life and to ensure his safety. If he had become infected with a sentient virus, that didn't threaten his life but did change who he fundamentally was, it would have been her responsibility to purge it- even at the expense of the sentient virus. She was his Captain and that was her job.
While she often adopted the same tone in regard to Neelix she had no such official responsibility. So, in this case, when the two of them merged, she was going to have to do whatever it took to get Tuvok back. It just so happened that it (unfortunately) wouldn't involve sacrificing Neelix...just the the hybrid of what the two of them became.
I think Starfleet would have sided with Janeway (especially after reading reports about Neelix.) So, in this case, I'm with her. I can't imagine what the alternative could have been save for to lose two lives in exchange for one. Of course no one should have the power to weigh lives like that but, as often happens in the STU, a Captain had to and she made her choice.
-Withers-
I had long been in the "killing Tuvix was beyond the pale" camp, but my Brother made an arguement that got me reconsidering my position.
It was when I read an article that compared it to organ transplant: what if you had to kill Tuvix to harvest his organs and give them to Tuvok and Neelix.
That's fairly Morality 101 (in fact, I have seen it used in a show that is a professor's lectures on the subject): you don't get to kill someone, even if their parts would save multiple lives.
My brother pointed out how this one is different: those parts originally belonged to Tuvok and Neelix.
We can't force you to give up your kidney to save the life of another. That would be immoral: it is your kidney, and it is entirely your choice.
If somebody takes your kidney by force, you have the right to have it back.
Now here's the real crux: even if it has been implanted in someone else. It is still your property, since it was taken without your permission, and you should get it back if that is what you want. Even if removing it will kill the other person.
Now, if the other person was blameless in all of this, we do kinda hope you are a nice guy who will let him keep your kidney, but you are under no moral obligation to do so. We cannot make the theft legitimate just by going, "Oop, gave it to someone who needs it, so now you can't have it back."
Tuvok and Neelix were unable to give their permission. It is possible that they would have chosen to allow Tuvix to keep their parts, but we have to ask them. If we can't ask them for some reason (under anesthesia, perhaps), we have to assume they would rather live than give up their parts to save another.
My brother also uses a very strict definition of "dead": if you can come back, you aren't dead. Thus, Tuvok and Neelix were not "dead" yet. If they were dead, their rights to their organs would be reduced (to nothing, in fact) and we should let the live guy keep them, but they aren't dead, and failure to return their organs to them would be killing them.
Because he can only live by harming Tuvok and Neelix, Tuvix can only live if they both consent to it. We cannot compel someone to support another person at the expense of their health or life. We can applaud those who volunteer for such support, but we cannot compel it.
I have to mark this down to bad writing: Janeway appears to have the moral high ground, but in the episode manages to convince nobody else of that fact. It would have been much better if the Doctor had said something along the lines of "I agree with you entirely, Captain. That doesn't change the fact that it is against my Hippocratic Oath (or ethical programming) to take actions that result in the death of an otherwise healthy patient. I can agree with you that it is the right thing to do, but I am incapable of actually doing it."
It was when I read an article that compared it to organ transplant: what if you had to kill Tuvix to harvest his organs and give them to Tuvok and Neelix.
That's fairly Morality 101 (in fact, I have seen it used in a show that is a professor's lectures on the subject): you don't get to kill someone, even if their parts would save multiple lives.
My brother pointed out how this one is different: those parts originally belonged to Tuvok and Neelix.
We can't force you to give up your kidney to save the life of another. That would be immoral: it is your kidney, and it is entirely your choice.
If somebody takes your kidney by force, you have the right to have it back.
Now here's the real crux: even if it has been implanted in someone else. It is still your property, since it was taken without your permission, and you should get it back if that is what you want. Even if removing it will kill the other person.
Now, if the other person was blameless in all of this, we do kinda hope you are a nice guy who will let him keep your kidney, but you are under no moral obligation to do so. We cannot make the theft legitimate just by going, "Oop, gave it to someone who needs it, so now you can't have it back."
Tuvok and Neelix were unable to give their permission. It is possible that they would have chosen to allow Tuvix to keep their parts, but we have to ask them. If we can't ask them for some reason (under anesthesia, perhaps), we have to assume they would rather live than give up their parts to save another.
My brother also uses a very strict definition of "dead": if you can come back, you aren't dead. Thus, Tuvok and Neelix were not "dead" yet. If they were dead, their rights to their organs would be reduced (to nothing, in fact) and we should let the live guy keep them, but they aren't dead, and failure to return their organs to them would be killing them.
Because he can only live by harming Tuvok and Neelix, Tuvix can only live if they both consent to it. We cannot compel someone to support another person at the expense of their health or life. We can applaud those who volunteer for such support, but we cannot compel it.
I have to mark this down to bad writing: Janeway appears to have the moral high ground, but in the episode manages to convince nobody else of that fact. It would have been much better if the Doctor had said something along the lines of "I agree with you entirely, Captain. That doesn't change the fact that it is against my Hippocratic Oath (or ethical programming) to take actions that result in the death of an otherwise healthy patient. I can agree with you that it is the right thing to do, but I am incapable of actually doing it."
Tuvok and Neelix were constantly giving birth to Tuvix.
It's not like half way through labour, you decide that a mother is so distressed you murder the baby... Oh, that happens.
Tuvix was three poeple. Neelix was one. Tuvok was one. Neelix and Tuvok were two.
Tuvix numerically had more right to life than either Tuvok or Tuvix seperately or combined.
It's not like half way through labour, you decide that a mother is so distressed you murder the baby... Oh, that happens.
Tuvix was three poeple. Neelix was one. Tuvok was one. Neelix and Tuvok were two.
Tuvix numerically had more right to life than either Tuvok or Tuvix seperately or combined.
Zygotes are produced by two haploid cells which combine to form the single diploid cell. Until they combine, neither is viable.
Brit said:
No one said anything about an unborn child. What I said was 'baby'. In discussing morality (or anything), circumlocutions are helpful only in avoiding the subject and evading the questions.
I said halfborn.
It's like Tuvix is crowning and janeway tells the two boymommies that not only can they stop pushing, but they can retract him back in as she pushes the amalgam back down their birthing canals.
Does that count?
Medicine can stop/delay/postpone labour if there is an immediate danger to the parent or child.
So if they repeated the accident because they together had decided that they both liked being Tuvix better than Tuvok and Neelix and informed janeway to stay the hell out of their lives and that "Tuvix" has like power of attorney... Would it be the same Tuvix or some fresh Nuvix who coalessed on the transporter padd?
It's like Tuvix is crowning and janeway tells the two boymommies that not only can they stop pushing, but they can retract him back in as she pushes the amalgam back down their birthing canals.
Does that count?
Medicine can stop/delay/postpone labour if there is an immediate danger to the parent or child.
So if they repeated the accident because they together had decided that they both liked being Tuvix better than Tuvok and Neelix and informed janeway to stay the hell out of their lives and that "Tuvix" has like power of attorney... Would it be the same Tuvix or some fresh Nuvix who coalessed on the transporter padd?
Of all the Tuvix aruguments I've seen in here over the years that one is one of the more ingenious. Your brother must be a really smart guy.
While that one is hard to top here's another thought. Starship captains have the right to order crewpersons on "one way missions". Now Janeway has a proven tendency to try to take on those one way missions herself ("Night", "Waking Moments", etc) but in this situation she was not able to undergo the procedure herself that would bring back her lost crewmembers. So, she had to order Tuvix. Tuvix, although he claimed to have the Starfleet training that would have enabled him to carry out his mission, proved he was NOT a Starfleet officer by trying to guild the rest of the crew into saving him at the expense of Tuvok and Neelix.
While I could sympathize with his desire to live I found his behavior selfish and childish - not at all like a Starfleet officer who has been ordered on a one-way mission - or even a certain captain who would rather put herself at risk to test out a theory ("Waking Moments") than order someone else to do it.
That was all covered in the episode.
He has the will to live of two men?
Cool.
Since you're going to bring organ doning into this, what about kes' lung which was inside Neelix?
2 percent of Tuvix was Kes.
If janeway had to guess that Tuvok and Neelix wanted to murder their own "child" so that they themselves could return to the land of the living and if she did beleive that was their actual wishes and she would comply with those wishes no matter what terminal application that would bring to Tuvix, then by those odds, if Kes wanted her lung back, then somone would have to dig it out of Tuvix's chest and give it back to her.
Merchant of Venice much?
They'd have to take out both lungs and strain the Ocampan DNA out of both of them until what every unusable pulp was left over would be so unsuable that the outcome would send Tuvix back into that Iron lung Neelix used to be sentenced to.
That girl could have ruined Tuvix's life so awfully that it would have been a complete mistake to think he could do anything other than to submit to her childish tantrum.
He has the will to live of two men?
Cool.
Since you're going to bring organ doning into this, what about kes' lung which was inside Neelix?
2 percent of Tuvix was Kes.
If janeway had to guess that Tuvok and Neelix wanted to murder their own "child" so that they themselves could return to the land of the living and if she did beleive that was their actual wishes and she would comply with those wishes no matter what terminal application that would bring to Tuvix, then by those odds, if Kes wanted her lung back, then somone would have to dig it out of Tuvix's chest and give it back to her.
Merchant of Venice much?
They'd have to take out both lungs and strain the Ocampan DNA out of both of them until what every unusable pulp was left over would be so unsuable that the outcome would send Tuvix back into that Iron lung Neelix used to be sentenced to.
That girl could have ruined Tuvix's life so awfully that it would have been a complete mistake to think he could do anything other than to submit to her childish tantrum.
No, because they asked Kes first.
You do not have the right to take back a gift once it is given. But if you are the victim of theft, you do have the right to your property back, even if giving it back to you would harm the person who received it.
Do you value the mother's life over the already born child?
Would you say that a child could be sacrificed to provide, oh, say, a new heart for its mother?
Tuvix had already been born--he was not a fetus.
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