Janeway's Convient Morals

[Guy Gardener]

If janeway had to guess that Tuvok and Neelix wanted to murder their own "child" so that they themselves could return to the land of the living and if she did beleive that was their actual wishes and she would comply with those wishes no matter what terminal application that would bring to Tuvix, then by those odds, if Kes wanted her lung back, then somone would have to dig it out of Tuvix's chest and give it back to her.

No, because they asked Kes first.
You do not have the right to take back a gift once it is given. But if you are the victim of theft, you do have the right to your property back, even if giving it back to you would harm the person who received it.

She gave a gift which was stolen. The Giftee fumbled their present putting ownership into contest that the rightful owner of that lung might have reverted to the previous legal and real owner more so than the thief or the semi dead actual owner.

I'm using copyright law as a basis for this crude and poorly made argument.

 

[AuntKate]

Whether you agree with Janeway's decision or not, it is not a "convenient" decision. She agonized over it and was thanked for making it by the two people who returned from "wherever" they were. Not all decisions have easy answers, and I applaud the writers for giving us a situation that makes us think, even years later. That is what the best of Trek does, IMHO.

 

[Zameaze]

Whether you agree with Janeway's decision or not, it is not a "convenient" decision.

It was a convenient decision, indeed. The Doctor refused to have any part in the murder of Tuvix. Janeway went ahead with the procedure against The Doctor's wishes because she wanted Tuvok and Neelix back.

 

[AuntKate]

Whether you agree with Janeway's decision or not, it is not a "convenient" decision.

It was a convenient decision, indeed. The Doctor refused to have any part in the murder of Tuvix. Janeway went ahead with the procedure against The Doctor's wishes because she wanted Tuvok and Neelix back.

According to dictionary.com, "convenient" means: suitable or agreeable to the needs or purpose; well-suited with respect to facility or ease in use; favorable, easy, or comfortable for use.

If you have seen the struggle that Janeway goes through before making up her mind, if you watch the look of anxiety on her face as she steels herself to take the action to separate Neelix and Tuvok from Tuvix, if you see the agony she obviously exhibits after she leaves Sickbay, there is no way that you can call this a "favorable, easy, or comfortable" decision for the captain. She doesn't celebrate doing this. She doesn't even show relief; how could she? It is a decision that she will carry with her to her grave.

That, to me, is the opposite of convenient.

 

[Zameaze]

Whether you agree with Janeway's decision or not, it is not a "convenient" decision.

It was a convenient decision, indeed. The Doctor refused to have any part in the murder of Tuvix. Janeway went ahead with the procedure against The Doctor's wishes because she wanted Tuvok and Neelix back.

According to dictionary.com, "convenient" means: suitable or agreeable to the needs or purpose; well-suited with respect to facility or ease in use; favorable, easy, or comfortable for use.

If you have seen the struggle that Janeway goes through before making up her mind, if you watch the look of anxiety on her face as she steels herself to take the action to separate Neelix and Tuvok from Tuvix, if you see the agony she obviously exhibits after she leaves Sickbay, there is no way that you can call this a "favorable, easy, or comfortable" decision for the captain. She doesn't celebrate doing this. She doesn't even show relief; how could she? It is a decision that she will carry with her to her grave.

That, to me, is the opposite of convenient.

Janeway's struggle was because she was trying to justify an immoral decision, as The Doctor's refusal pointed out. Janeway's decision was convenient because it was suitable to her purpose.

 

[AuntKate]

It was a convenient decision, indeed. The Doctor refused to have any part in the murder of Tuvix. Janeway went ahead with the procedure against The Doctor's wishes because she wanted Tuvok and Neelix back.

According to dictionary.com, "convenient" means: suitable or agreeable to the needs or purpose; well-suited with respect to facility or ease in use; favorable, easy, or comfortable for use.

If you have seen the struggle that Janeway goes through before making up her mind, if you watch the look of anxiety on her face as she steels herself to take the action to separate Neelix and Tuvok from Tuvix, if you see the agony she obviously exhibits after she leaves Sickbay, there is no way that you can call this a "favorable, easy, or comfortable" decision for the captain. She doesn't celebrate doing this. She doesn't even show relief; how could she? It is a decision that she will carry with her to her grave.

That, to me, is the opposite of convenient.

Janeway's struggle was because she was trying to justify an immoral decision, as The Doctor's refusal pointed out. Janeway's decision was convenient because it was suitable to her purpose.

The issue she is struggling with is a matter of interpretation, of course. You like yours; I like mine.

I don't see her behavior in those moments as an attempt to justify an immoral decision. I see it as a moral person facing a lose-lose dilemma--with both sides wrong and possibly immoral--similar to what the main character faces in "Sophie's Choice." Ideally, all three individuals would survive, but that option was not available to her. And so, she made what she thought was the better of two bad decisions. She carries the guilt of what she has done with her as she leaves sickbay and probably the rest of her life. To call this option "suitable to her purpose" is to misrepresent what really happened.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

To switch topics slightly, AuntKate's "Sophie's choice" metaphor made me think of another story in that noncanon book "Mosaic" by Jeri Taylor. When young Lt Kathryn Janeway was faced with such a choice; save her father or save her fiance from drowning in an icy sea. She couldn't pick one or the other, so tried to save both... and lost them both.

I think that episode, if we can assume "it" occurred (the Father's death was referred to in "Coda", including his drowning under the polar ice cap), taught her the price of "not" making a decision.

Tuvix was a "lose-lose" situation, and like the Doctor in "Latent Image", perhaps she leaned towards Tuvok and Neelix instead of Tuvix because she was friends with the others for too long to forget them. I guess we can call her decision "convenient" since she decided it in "her" favor... but as Aunt Kate said, she will have to live with that decision for the rest of her life.

Kind of like the way Laura Roslyn in Battlestar Galactica had to live with the decision of shooting down that passenger liner full of civilians because she thought they were the reason why the Cylons were tracking the fleet.

I wouldn't be surprised to find a "piece of paper with Tuvix's name written upon it" tucked into one of Janeway's pockets.

 

[kimc]

I don't see her behavior in those moments as an attempt to justify an immoral decision. I see it as a moral person facing a lose-lose dilemma--with both sides wrong and possibly immoral--similar to what the main character faces in "Sophie's Choice."

This is an excellent analogy and anyone who isn't aware of what Sophie's choice really was should check out the film asap.

 

[Brit]

A zygote is an amalgamation, a combination of sperm and ovum. The parents are the original beings, and yes I value the Mother's life (which usually includes responsibilities for other children) over the unborn. Tuvix rights ended when his life came at the expense of others.

Brit

Do you value the mother's life over the already born child?


Would you say that a child could be sacrificed to provide, oh, say, a new heart for its mother?


Tuvix had already been born--he was not a fetus.

But requiring the "parent" to give up his life for the child is a better choice?

You are not asking a child to give up his life you are telling an adult person, who used Kes to get his way. Tuvix himself had no morals, he was likeable as long as it suited him but his conversation with Kes put him beyond the pale IMHO.

Teya, you can stop nit picking me, I value life but I know that everyone cannot always be pleased, and sometimes hard decisions have to be made. Finally there is no one rule that will cover all situations, in this case Janeway was right.

In the situation of parent and child, the parent chooses and however the choice is made it is theirs. Tuvix wasn't a child, he was a kidnapper, who held two other lives as hostages, no different than Shinzon demanding Picard's blood. Picard could have said yes, Neelix and Tuvok could not.

The choice was really Neelix and Tuvok's, and the only way to ask them was to separate them. I think you will notice that they were not put back together as Tuvix afterward, and given what we saw they could have done just that if Neelix and Tuvix had agreed.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

The real reason Neelix left the ship was that he was dying. the poor "kitchenrat" had an Ocampan lung inside him which would start expiring of extreme old age half way through season 8.

Extracting Neelix was from Tuvix was a death sentence.

6 years as Neelix or 200 years as Tuvix?

One has to consider quality of life, but also certainly duration.

What about the psychological impact on Neelix?

His sister was murdered by being integrated with ten million other people until they were just a cloud of swirling thoughtless atomized bodyparts... How odd that he had to cope with being murdered the same way as little sis? it's like the universe's sense of mirth was hiccupping on his family.

 

[exodus]

But requiring the "parent" to give up his life for the child is a better choice?

Part of having kids is to carry on ones heritage, linage & legacy. Every parent wishes for their childern to succeed them, too carry on the Family name, so too speak.

What parent would be so selfish, not to give up their life for their child?

 

[AuntKate]

I agree. Most parents would make the ultimate sacrifice to save the life of their child.

To me, the real tragedy here is that they didn't come up with a way to restore Tuvok and Neelix and also keep Tuvix around.

 

[SpyOne]

Tuvix wasn't a child, he was a kidnapper, who held two other lives as hostages, no different than Shinzon demanding Picard's blood. Picard could have said yes, Neelix and Tuvok could not.

He was different from a kidnapper in that he had not actually done anything to place himself in that position. He was blameless for the condition that arose.

That is an important distinction because it is quite possible for a person, through their actions, to subordinate their rights to another. The easy example is if person A tries to kill person B: person B is now entirely justified in killing person A to survive.
Now, suppose another situation:shipwrecked and adrift at sea, two people and only one life preserver. Person A has the life preserver and without it person B will die. While it might be moral for person B to kill person A to get that life preserver and save his own life, we all agree that the situation is not directly parallel: person A has done nothing to cause the situation.

So, my point that Tuvix was not at fault does not mean that saving Tukov and Neelix was wrong, just that the situation was not morally equivalent to kidnapping.

 

[SpyOne]

But requiring the "parent" to give up his life for the child is a better choice?

Part of having kids is to carry on ones heritage, linage & legacy. Every parent wishes for their childern to succeed them, too carry on the Family name, so too speak.

What parent would be so selfish, not to give up their life for their child?

We can laud the choice of those who do, but it remains a choice.
It would be wrong to compel them.

 

[Zameaze]

But requiring the "parent" to give up his life for the child is a better choice?

Part of having kids is to carry on ones heritage, linage & legacy. Every parent wishes for their childern to succeed them, too carry on the Family name, so too speak.

What parent would be so selfish, not to give up their life for their child?

Yes, I would give up my life for my children in a heartbeat (or lack thereof) as would the great majority of parents. We are genetically predisposed in this direction. So if the parents were not around to ask, the safest guess would be that they would sacrifice their lives for their children.

 

[teya]

A zygote is an amalgamation, a combination of sperm and ovum. The parents are the original beings, and yes I value the Mother's life (which usually includes responsibilities for other children) over the unborn. Tuvix rights ended when his life came at the expense of others.

Brit

Do you value the mother's life over the already born child?


Would you say that a child could be sacrificed to provide, oh, say, a new heart for its mother?


Tuvix had already been born--he was not a fetus.

But requiring the "parent" to give up his life for the child is a better choice?

In symbiogenic reproduction, as posited in the episode, the parents die when the child is born.

You are not asking a child to give up his life you are telling an adult person, who used Kes to get his way. Tuvix himself had no morals, he was likeable as long as it suited him but his conversation with Kes put him beyond the pale IMHO.

I wasn't aware that being likeable was a requirement for life. Oh, wait, it's not. Just because you don't consider someone likeable, doesn't mean that their existence can be snuffed out.

Teya, you can stop nit picking me, I value life but I know that everyone cannot always be pleased, and sometimes hard decisions have to be made. Finally there is no one rule that will cover all situations, in this case Janeway was right.

I'm responding to your posts on a discussion board, not "nit-picking" you.

And IN YOUR OPINION, Janeway was right.

In mine she was wrong, and just because you believe differently doesn't mean I have to agree with you.


IDIC and all that.

In the situation of parent and child, the parent chooses and however the choice is made it is theirs. Tuvix wasn't a child, he was a kidnapper, who held two other lives as hostages, no different than Shinzon demanding Picard's blood. Picard could have said yes, Neelix and Tuvok could not.

According to the episode, Tuvix was born through a process of symbiogenic reproduction.


Since he had no choice in the matter, he can't be described as having kidnapped Neelix & Tuvok.

 

[Zameaze]

A zygote is an amalgamation, a combination of sperm and ovum. The parents are the original beings, and yes I value the Mother's life (which usually includes responsibilities for other children) over the unborn. Tuvix rights ended when his life came at the expense of others.

Brit

Do you value the mother's life over the already born child?


Would you say that a child could be sacrificed to provide, oh, say, a new heart for its mother?


Tuvix had already been born--he was not a fetus.

Oh well, I guess a direct answer to your questions is out of the question.

 

[exodus]

I agree. Most parents would make the ultimate sacrifice to save the life of their child.

To me, the real tragedy here is that they didn't come up with a way to restore Tuvok and Neelix and also keep Tuvix around.

I think that's why the ep & topic is still so controversial to this day. There is no exact right or wrong, just where you/we stand personally on the topic.

I will say this slightly off topic: lots of folks put down Voyager as weak Trek but I don't think any Trek series to date has an ep. like this one that still promotes such thought provoking and heated debate of ethics & morals as "Tuvix" does. I think this ep. would be a great educational tool if used in a college Ethics class.

 

[kimc]

The choice was really Neelix and Tuvok's, and the only way to ask them was to separate them. I think you will notice that they were not put back together as Tuvix afterward, and given what we saw they could have done just that if Neelix and Tuvix had agreed.

This is an excellent point. IF Tuvok and Neelix wanted to remain as Tuvix and/or IF they viewed Tuvix as their child and were willing to sacrifice their lives to bring him back then he would have been brought back.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sure they could make a a NEW Tuvix, but I suspect they couldn't make the same Tuvix.

Reunification would have been like if parents who lost a kid named Barry, creating a backup replacement and also called HER Barry pretending that there had been no Mulligan.

Tuvix's soul?

Tuvix in Chakotay's animal guide technopot vision quest machine?

Would Tuvix have manifested up for the vision quest or Neelix and Tuvok?

The CLOWN!

That clown was made up of several people and Janeway killed him well.

But are holograms alive?