Janeway's Convient Morals

[Zameaze]

Sure they could make a a NEW Tuvix, but I suspect they couldn't make the same Tuvix.

Reunification would have been like if parents who lost a kid named Barry, creating a backup replacement and also called HER Barry pretending that there had been no Mulligan.

Tuvix's soul?

Tuvix in Chakotay's animal guide technopot vision quest machine?

Would Tuvix have manifested up for the vision quest or Neelix and Tuvok?

The CLOWN!

That clown was made up of several people and Janeway killed him well.

But are holograms alive?

A thought provoking post! In reference to your last question, "Are holograms alive?" I'd like to add a couple more questions--

Would it be morally acceptable to destroy The Doctor?

Would it be moral to keep him as a slave? If we decide The Doctor is not alive, can it still be immoral to keep him as a slave?

Would Janeway pull the switch on The Doctor if it suited her needs? (After agonizing over it, of course.)

I'll let Rod Serling take us out: A fable? Most assuredly. But who's to say at some distant moment there might not be an assembly line producing a gentle product in the form of a doctor whose stock in trade is humanity? Fable, sure— but who's to say?

 

[Withers]

Speaking of the Doctor, here's something to chew on;

The Doctor, in spite of everything the crew presented, wasn't a person by Starfleet's definition of the term; he existed only because of and thanks to technology.

Does the same thing cross apply to Tuvix? He wouldn't have existed because of technology either.

-Withers-​

 

[Zameaze]

Speaking of the Doctor, here's something to chew on;

The Doctor, in spite of everything the crew presented, wasn't a person by Starfleet's definition of the term; he existed only because of and thanks to technology.

Does the same thing cross apply to Tuvix? He wouldn't have existed because of technology either.

If it did apply to Tuvix, would that mean it is all right to kill him? Would it also, then, be all right to kill a person because they were a test tube baby?

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Doctor killed the Equinox Doctor and there wasn't a qualm, but in the living witness timeline they thought of the Doctor as a person and were not going to execute him for Janeway's crimes until he had a trial even though Janeway killed him a little in Latent imagine by fixing his memories and winding back his clock, which is about as murdersome as every time she winds back the universes clock by travelling back in time to save her crew years after the fact divided by a googlegooglegoogleplex... Well, really "infinitely".

Naomi and harry might not be real because they were created by a matter duplicating process from a spacial cision (Or they're real and the rest of the crew is false.) the ship ran through in Deadlock Actually, considering how quickly Voyager ran upon the Vidiians after encountering the spacial cision, perhaps it was not a chance encounter at all and this was how the Think Tank cured the phage? By supplying infinite replacement parts. Voyager blundered into (secret) Vidiian space where they were screwing with reality, but there weren't any fences or keep out signs because they are assholes trying not to attract attention... Janeway messed up a medical experiment prolonging the Phage?

But, fantastically they seem to humour Naomi and Harry into thinking that they are real people.

 

[SpyOne]

The Doctor, in spite of everything the crew presented, wasn't a person by Starfleet's definition of the term; he existed only because of and thanks to technology.

I'm not at all sure Starfleet uses that definition. Wouldn't that description fit Data? Starfleet recognizes him as a person.
IIRC, they recognized Moriarty was alive and sentient, and he was a hologram just like the Doctor.

 

[SpyOne]

The Doctor killed the Equinox Doctor and there wasn't a qualm, ...

Granted, although the Equinox Doctor was threatening the Doctor with the same, and had his finger on the trigger, so-to-speak.
Apparently Doc's ethical routines aren't set up to compel him to not harm holograms, and he is allowed to decide to delete another hologram to save his own life.

Note also that the Equinox's Doctor might not have been sentient. We had very little evidence either way, but then so did Doc.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Doctor, in spite of everything the crew presented, wasn't a person by Starfleet's definition of the term; he existed only because of and thanks to technology.

I'm not at all sure Starfleet uses that definition. Wouldn't that description fit Data? Starfleet recognizes him as a person.
IIRC, they recognized Moriarty was alive and sentient, and he was a hologram just like the Doctor.

Data had a trial. he was an unwitting slave beforehand and not a slave at all afterhand (that can't be a word.).In Author Author, the legal Authority, (was it Owen?) wanted to avoid the precedence of giving a hologram "humanoid" rights because that would mean they would have set their unpaid workforce free from their unquestioning yolke.

Picard saying that Moriarty is a person does not make it legally so, just like Lincoln saying that black people were all free didn't mean that half a million white people didn't have to die until it was legally confirmed everywhere.

Meanwhile you can't say that the Doctor was sentient, and the Equinox Doctor wasn't without qualifying some yardstick for dividing between sentience and nonsentience? Especially since the Equinox Doctor had been running continuously for about 6 months longer than Voyagers doctor depending on When he was conscripted, but considering Rudy lost half his crew in his first week, odds are it was in week two. Personally I say they're both nonsentient but that's just me. It's an all or nothing deal unless you can borrow one of those rigs from Bladerunner.

 

[Luther Sloan]

The only time I thought Janeway was off her rocker was when she tried to kill Tom Paris in "Thirty Days". Sure, Paris was getting a bit too involved with a particular society and it's well being. Sure, he was way out of line for wanting to destroy an empty mining facility that was doing more harm than good on another world that wasn't their concern. But Paris was not murdering or trying to kill anyone. He was doing what he believed to be the right thing for this world in the here and now. And Janeway was willing to kill him over his own sense of trying to help these people out.

Anyways, besides that. I never really had a problem with any of her other decisions, though.

In fact, although Janeway decisions might have seemed contradictory at times, she basically made decisions based on either Starfleet rules, a sense of right and wrong, and what she believed to be the best thing for her crew.

So you really can't blame her.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Sure we can.

She tried to kill Tom while obeying the laws of another state, but as soon as she had him in her custody, she ran when it was their right and "need" to try Mr Paris, and they chased her, when really by the same standards she judged Tom she should have shot herself for fleeing as much as she shot at him for terrorism.

Contradicting double standards.

 

[Luther Sloan]

I can forgive one stupid incident with a Captain. There could have been any number of reasons that could have caused her to act like a blood hound from hell in that episode.

Granted, I still don't like it. But it makes me think that she isn't the perfect little cookie cutter Captain that some have made her out to be. Besides, as blinded as might have been in that episode, she was just defending the Prime Directive, though.

 

[Anwar]

Geez, so the TNG+ crews get criticized for being too "perfect" yet when any of them do something imperfect they just criticized for THAT too? What do you people want?

 

[JanewayRulz!]

Tom was blowing up a facility to force an entire society to do as he thought was best.

He didn't think of the consequences of his actions on the people, only the consequences of his inactions on the planet. He was doing it in direct violation of not only his Captain but of the prime directive.

I think any Captain that stood by and did NOTHING but especially this Captain, would have been RAKED over the coals for playing favorites if all that she did was to slap Tom on the wrist for such aggressive action against an alien society.

 

[Zameaze]

I can forgive one stupid incident with a Captain. There could have been any number of reasons that could have caused her to act like a blood hound from hell in that episode.

Her period? A bad hair day?

At her trail--"Yeah, I tried to kill Paris, but it was just one of those days."

 

[AuntKate]

Tom disobeyed a direct order not to interfere with the planet's decision. Plus, the captain warned him repeatedly to stop or she would fire, a warning which he failed to heed. If a lawful authority, like your captain (or a police officer, for that matter) tells you, "Stop or I'll shoot," who's to blame if you don't stop and you get shot? I'd say Tom has a lot to answer for in this case.

 

[Zameaze]

^
"Stop doing what you think is morally right or I'll shoot," said Janeway, knowing there was no other way.

 

[exodus]

The only time I thought Janeway was off her rocker was when she tried to kill Tom Paris in "Thirty Days". Sure, Paris was getting a bit too involved with a particular society and it's well being. Sure, he was way out of line for wanting to destroy an empty mining facility that was doing more harm than good on another world that wasn't their concern. But Paris was not murdering or trying to kill anyone.

He was tampering with their environment.
What if his "theory" was wrong?
He could have just as easily killed them instead of thinking he was saving them.
It was one of the fears on that society, which is one reason why they didn't want anything tampered with.
The government would used the excuse as an act of sabotage against them and would be within their rights to declare war on Voyager.
Paris actions had to potential to kill lots of people.

 

[SpyOne]

If a lawful authority, like your captain (or a police officer, for that matter) tells you, "Stop or I'll shoot," who's to blame if you don't stop and you get shot? I'd say Tom has a lot to answer for in this case.

That depends on a lot: if they have no right to tell you to stop, then they stopped being the "lawful authority" when they ordered you to stop, and you're getting shot when you refuse is no more your fault than when you are shot by a mugger.

I am not trying to characterize Janeway or Paris's actions in that episode, as I haven't seen it and haven't yet read the transcript, but I am pointing out that your argument presented above hinges on Janeway being right. Essentially you said that if Janeway was right to shoot at him then Janeway was right to shoot at him, which of course goes without saying.

 

[Guy Gardener]

If M C Escher made cookie cutters, I wonder if the cookies it cut would look like Kathryn Janeway?

Janeway was right to shoot him. She had to. Tom was playing god.

If some one was trying to blow up a local nuclear power station as safely as possible because it was giving local children cancer, you tend to shoot the person with the bomb before they can mount and prime the bastard if they don't stand down when you tell them to.

I feel sorry for the actual ensigns aboard Voyager who looked up at Janeway and said "oh? you think this, our job is being punishment, fuck you, being an Ensign is wonderful, so why don't you demote him further because you're making it hard to be prideful of being you're lowest ranked officer if this is all the respect we get even if we ignore that you're promoting unqualified terrorists with no formal education above us (hey? Is this like space age affirmative action? The Starfleet graduates have to work 4 times harder to receive the same level of consideration for promotion as the Maquis because they are a minority in need of representation and voice?), now this!"

There was a shit load of enlisted ranks she could have put him down to, and even then, you'd have people saying "So you're trying to put him in the dog box, make Tommy think that he's wound up in some sort of slave class lifestyle and this is it? Am I a slave too?"

I really think that the people writing Voyager did not know there was a host of ranks below Ensign... Well I suppose the Equinox lot got stripped to "crewmen" and i wonder what Suder's rank was and if it changed considering house arrest seemed to remove him of all his responsibilities aboard Voyager?

 

[Luther Sloan]

Yes. I did agree that Janeway was within her right to follow the Prime Directive. And I do realize the ramifications of not following it.

I did say...

she was just defending the Prime Directive, though.

However, Janeway didn't seek out an alternative other than obliterating Tom Paris out of existence. So on one hand, I do agree with her decision (and might have personally done the same thing if I was in the Captain's chair), but on the other hand I think she could have gotten a bit more creative in stopping him instead of the... "shoot first and ask questions later" approach, though.

But that's just me.


Side Note:

As for Tom Paris's early promotion early on:
The Captain needed people she knew she could trust or rely on. Also, it could also be that no one was all that qualified either.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

didn't seek out an alternative other than obliterating Tom Paris out of existence.

Sure she did. She obliterated the weapon being fired at the station. The concussion from the weapon exploding so close to the Delta Flyer put it out of commission. She never actually fired on the Flyer, though in no uncertain terms she told Tom that she WOULD have had she needed to do so.

And frankly, you're lucky to be standing here right now. I would have destroyed your shuttle if necessary.