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James Cameron's Avatar: Discuss/Countdown

An observation about race: When first seeing the trailers it occurred me there wasn't any main non-white actors, and then corrected myself: Oh, Zoe Saldana's in the movie.

But, you know, she plays the exotic alien. Not reading anything into that, but the observation about Stargate needing to make all its primitive cultures white seems an apt one here.

Even today, when America is fighting a war that involves occupation - it's not the same thing as what happened during the Age of Colonization. Avatar's trailer seems to show a military-industrial complex overtly seeking to move a group of "primitive savages" off a piece of land so that they can take the resources of that land.
We also hear that Weaver is supposed to be 'finding a diplomatic solution'. From what I can discern, that may be part of the point of the avatars, as a way to communicate with the natives.

As far as that goes, that makes sense. If this magic rock stuff is important, then people will probably try to take it if they can't find a peaceful way of making the natives let them have it. That's at least slightly better than suggesting they just go in there and screw the place up.

All that would differ in reality is we'd be getting a lot more nuanced arguments then we get in the movie and terms like 'savages' would be studiously avoided. We might even get a critique of the native's apparently tribalist government system, with the suggestion that the intent of the mission is to impose democracy on them and provide them with a better, more technologically-inclined standard of living... but heck, logic or no logic, economic demands tend to be met.

True, which is kind of part of my point. Even a slightly nuanced rationale would go a ways towards making this feel less like something with characters pulled from the 19th century. And, as I've said a few times, I'm sure the trailer, which has to get the Big Concept across, is less nuanced than the film itself. Though, even in the Colonial Period, it was more often than not done through puppet governments and collaborations with certain avariciously minded natives working with the Colonial powers, than just - blast 'em off the resource and take it. Which just simplifies things to the point of Black Hats and White Hats.

The funny thing about this trope is that it has flipped in many cases (and this certainly appears to be one of those cases) - where the whites are shown as thoroughly disgusting, sadistic brutes and the natives are shown as perfectly pristine saints. It's really that simplification of heroes and villains that worries me about the story.
 
As far as that goes, that makes sense. If this magic rock stuff is important, then people will probably try to take it if they can't find a peaceful way of making the natives let them have it. That's at least slightly better than suggesting they just go in there and screw the place up.
Indeed. RDA wants to mine the stuff as cheaply as possible. But if they can't convince the natives to let them have it, they will take it.

Holy crap. Maybe it's because of the whole "RDA" thing, but I just remembered that this was an actual Stargate episode.

SG1 has to negotiate with "alien" Native Americans in order to get access to the Naquadah deposits and when negotiations break down, the US Military decides to try to take it by force. I think that episode ended with alien animals "helping" the Native Americans because they're spiritual and the Americans are evil and technological. Or some such. :p
 
The funny thing about this trope is that it has flipped in many cases (and this certainly appears to be one of those cases) - where the whites are shown as thoroughly disgusting, sadistic brutes and the natives are shown as perfectly pristine saints. It's really that simplification of heroes and villains that worries me about the story.

Part of the Noble Savage trope is that even though the "savages" are inferior, their inferiority allows them to be more connected to the world around them and be more in tune with nature or some such.

It's almost intrinsically tied to the whole New Age movement of the mid-20th century when people who were disaffected by contemporary society began to look elsewhere for spiritual fulfillment.

The elephant in the room is that the people who write these stories tend to think that they are "liberal" or "progressive" by privileging a raced population. The problem is that they only pick the romanticized and fetishized aspects of a particular society to the point of objectification.
 
Got a new respect for that song from Titanic. I can still goddamn remember that, but this song? I've forgotten it already. Really.

I wasn't that impressed by the released clip of Horner's score either, on the subject of Avatar music. It's not bad, it's just sort of... there. A lull, I expect.
 
The amusing thing is that I'm sure the Stargate people got so many complaints that they eventually just made all the "villagers of the week" white, whereas they were distinctly more diverse in the first couple of seasons. The problems seem to disappear when the primitive peoples aren't raced in anyway.

Would that be when Stargate went from Showtime to SciFi? Maybe it was just being cheap and lazy as opposed to appeasing any sensitivities?
 
Part of the Noble Savage trope is that even though the "savages" are inferior, their inferiority allows them to be more connected to the world around them and be more in tune with nature or some such.

It's almost intrinsically tied to the whole New Age movement of the mid-20th century when people who were disaffected by contemporary society began to look elsewhere for spiritual fulfillment.

The elephant in the room is that the people who write these stories tend to think that they are "liberal" or "progressive" by privileging a raced population. The problem is that they only pick the romanticized and fetishized aspects of a particular society to the point of objectification.

Oy - no doubt. Did you see Terence Malick's The New World?
 
Holy crap. Maybe it's because of the whole "RDA" thing, but I just remembered that this was an actual Stargate episode.

SG1 has to negotiate with "alien" Native Americans in order to get access to the Naquadah deposits and when negotiations break down, the US Military decides to try to take it by force. I think that episode ended with alien animals "helping" the Native Americans because they're spiritual and the Americans are evil and technological. Or some such. :p

If you're talking about the ep. named Spirits, you got some of the details wrong and really there's little in the way of comparison with Avatar's storyline.

http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s2/213.shtml
 
There's a new Avatar scene (1 min) at IGN, from very early in the movie: (no plot spoiler, but it does show the first reveal of the flying mountains to Jake & Co, but it could still be considered a SPOILER to beware) :)

"You should see your faces" : http://movies.ign.com/dor/objects/800318/avatar...

First lame clip I've seen. The computer screens in the ship look way too cheesy and the whole "oh my god" moment kinda fell flat because I wasn't impressed with the landscape.
 
Would that be when Stargate went from Showtime to SciFi? Maybe it was just being cheap and lazy as opposed to appeasing any sensitivities?

Naw, I'm pretty sure it was still during the first five years. It's been too long since I've watch the show proper, but there seemed to be a dramatic shift away from specific cultural groups being represented to just generic medieval fantasy Hobbiton villages. Is cost part of it? I guess so - having to buy "ethnic" costumes probably was more expensive than the generic shirt and pants that they ended up wearing over and over again.

But the same thing happened to the Goa'uld - they went from representing specific groups and mythologies to simply being generic "gods". I still remember the Chinese Goa'uld. :lol:


If you're talking about the ep. named Spirits, you got some of the details wrong and really there's little in the way of comparison with Avatar's storyline.

http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s2/213.shtml

Other than the "Natives" being on a planet and the big bad (American) Humans trying to exploit the resources? Sure, the details are different, but the plot is exactly the same.

And I don't want to bag on Stargate - Star Trek is JUST as guilty of this, along with pretty much every single SF TV series based around exploring planets of the week.


Oy - no doubt. Did you see Terence Malick's The New World?

Hah, no. I avoided it because of the things I read/heard about the film. I can imagine how cringe worthy it must be though.
 
I don't think homogenizing planet populations is quite as bad as the "black person planet" episode that every Sci Fi show seems to love pulling. Having a tribal planet with a bunch of colored savages running around seems to be a staple of science fiction.
 
I don't think homogenizing planet populations is quite as bad as the "black person planet" episode that every Sci Fi show seems to love pulling. Having a tribal planet with a bunch of colored savages running around seems to be a staple of science fiction.
Sure, but how is that worse than the Uber-PC version of alien worlds that have the same ethnic mix as Earth? (white Vulcans, black Vulcans, asian Vulcans, you name it) ;) Talk about being afraid to offend... Of course true aliens would appear to be fairly homogeneous to us - so I guess the biggest problem is all the human-looking aliens with "bumpy foreheads". :) - At least 'Avatar' is avoiding *that* 'trope'! :lol:
 
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If you're talking about the ep. named Spirits, you got some of the details wrong and really there's little in the way of comparison with Avatar's storyline.

http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s2/213.shtml

Other than the "Natives" being on a planet and the big bad (American) Humans trying to exploit the resources? Sure, the details are different, but the plot is exactly the same.

And I don't want to bag on Stargate - Star Trek is JUST as guilty of this, along with pretty much every single SF TV series based around exploring planets of the week.

You're kind of ignoring the fact that it was Cameron who comapred Avatar to Dancing With Wolves and I don't see the parallel with SG1's Spirits, since in the end the SGC decided to leave the planet in peace, which I don't see happening in Avatar.
 
Crippled, soldier white guy, no less, in this one. I don't even mind a cliche from time to time, but this is white guy defends the natives on steroids. Pandora is the ultimate untouched primordial paradise. The natives are not only noble savages who are naturally peaceful, living in perfect harmony with their unspoiled environment, but they are badasssssss warriors when provoked..


hmm one wonders how they became these badass warriors without wiping out a lot of their own kind along the way.

especially if there is only one predominate culture on the planet now.
;)
 
hmm one wonders how they became these badass warriors without wiping out a lot of their own kind along the way.
Assuming we're playing the trope straight (and we probably are), they got their warrior-ness from hunting. Look at all those huge, giant creatures - they've got to spend their alien vigour and badassery bringing down one of them.

It also ties into their Close Connection to Nature, they Live Off The Land and use every goddamn part of the buffalo until you're sick of your buffalo-eyeball bracelets.

especially if there is only one predominate culture on the planet now.
;)
Is there? The film looks like a very localised conflict to me - one tribe of Na'vi that can't be more than a few thousand versus some military types, and entirely in the confines of a densely forested area (we don't see the Na'vi of the deserts or open plains resisting also). But then again, it's a standard trope that a 'planet' in terms of population and terrain is slightly smaller than a football stadium.
 
I don't think homogenizing planet populations is quite as bad as the "black person planet" episode that every Sci Fi show seems to love pulling. Having a tribal planet with a bunch of colored savages running around seems to be a staple of science fiction.
Sure, but how is that worse than the Uber-PC version of alien worlds that have the same ethnic mix as Earth? (white Vulcans, black Vulcans, asian Vulcans, you name it) ;) Talk about being afraid to offend... Of course true aliens would appear to be fairly homogeneous to us - so I guess the biggest problem is all the human-looking aliens with "bumpy foreheads". :) - At least 'Avatar' is avoiding *that* 'trope'! :lol:
I don't really mind white/black/Asian Vulcans per se--obviously they're portrayed by human actors, so unless you want to whiteface Tim Russ (or blackface Jolene Blalock) you take the best guy (or whomever you've got) for the job.

But in developing ethnicities in aliens, there should at least be a basic understanding of what melanin is for, and why these slightly differing population groups exist on Earth. These factors may or may not actually exist in your alien's environment or biological makeup.

Really, it's always seemed to me that the default for any hairless alien should be brown or black skin. Ultraviolet radiation sucks no matter what planet you're from.

Also, wtf is up with the floating mountains on Pandora? : /
 
Really, it's always seemed to me that the default for any hairless alien should be brown or black skin. Ultraviolet radiation sucks no matter what planet you're from.
Isn't that taking a rather narrow view of how different forms of life could be constructed?
Also, wtf is up with the floating mountains on Pandora? : /
This Pandora 'mockumentary' feature offers an explanation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIYb9g_U8jU (at 2:06 in the video)

The AVTR.com site also has background on the Avatar universe.
 
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