Jake Sisko - Completely Unlikeable

[Eric Cheung]

I appreciate all the thoughtful replies to this thread. I guess I just felt like venting a bit. (Do you think? haha)

It's true that it would have been easier to make him just a "mini-Sisko", and that making him flawed like any adolescent and then teenager was more realistic. I'm just thinking of some moments where I wish someone had punched him:

1. When he was SUCH a cowardly crybaby in "Nor the Battle . . .". It's understandable that he'd be afraid, but he was just gutless and pouting to the point that if it were real life I just wouldn't respect him.

2. At dinner with Captain Sisko in their quarters when Cassidy is under suspicion of being a Maquis smuggler. Jake doesn't know this fact, but he repeatedly makes sexual innuendos to his Dad about why his Dad misses Cassidy (which is a weird thing for a son to do anyway), LONG PAST the point when Benjamin has made it clear that he is not amused by it. Finally Benjamin says "Alright, that's enough!" A very tempered response to such flagrantly annoying behavior by Jake.

3. When Captain Sisko is having the "visions" sent from the Prophets in the "Balhalla" (sp?) episode, Jake decides to have Bashir perform the surgery on his father that he knows will stop the visions, in direct defiance of his father's wishes. This may have been a realistic action, as it seems possible (tho far from certain) that Sisko would have died without the surgery, but Jake acted selfishly in making this decision. Major Kira basically said as much, and she was right.

4. "It's a Klingon bachelor party. Use your imagination." - Jake to Major Kira. Jake copped this line from Quark, and when he says it to Kira, she responds with nothing but a look of disdain. Deservedly.

SPIN

One can be idealistic without being naive.

And wasn't DS9 supposed to the be cynical Trek in any case?

And Jake isn't being true to any principles he remains on DS9 for no understandable reason other than the inherent risk of the action. Not only that but he isn't smart enough to understand that he can't write freely-he can't talk about Dominion "occupiers" even Weyoun tells him "look this isn't how things work, you can't use certain language." He chose to stay behind enemy lines as a journalist, yet didn't grasp that he couldn't write as if he was in San Francisco.

He asks Intendant Kira for help just as she is about kill him. He is so blinded by his desire to have his mother back(an understandable desire in every sense) he doesn't get that no not everyone is gentle and reasonable. Intendant Kira had just killed a child-Nog even after he helped her escape. The only reason the intendant spared his life is because she obviously enjoyed his father's company(among other things) if he wasn't Sisko's kid she would have shot him without a second thought. Even after she makes it clear she will expect some sort of repayment for her mercy in the future.

No matter what situation a kid grows up in, chances are, they'll still be kids. And kids tend to be impulsive, and think they're relatively invincible. I think he was written quite realistically, even if his courage might have exceeded his grasp.

He was a couple of years older than me when the show was on the air, but now, he certainly reminds me of some young people I know even in their 20s.

Even with the inappropriate jokes at dinner, the intent is to sound more grown up, but most kids that age lack the sensitivity to sense that their parents might be going through something stressful, so they may push the envelope a little more than they intend to. It takes years to learn those kinds of social skills, even for the most perceptive among us.

Not everyone wants to watch a kid learn those skills on television, but I liked him. He was generally a good kid who meant well, sometimes screwed up in realistic ways, but usually learned from those mistakes.

 

[Tosk]

Sidko and his father, not so much. The only part that may have made it possible that granhpa Sisko could have had a son and grandson as good looking as those two was that they got ALL their looks from the grandmother's side of the family.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I referenced every episode from which my opinion on the character came.

You had previously said he never faced adversity, not that he was naive.

He is naive and painfully unable to understand that the universe is not a gentle place where alternate universe mother and son can re-unite, he doesn't understand the inherent malice and cruelty of someone like the Intendant Kira who would shoot him in a heartbeat if he wasn't Sisko's son.

He doesn't understand the dominion is an authoritarian power that isn't going to tolerate seditious speech or action. I was surprised they didn't kill him when he remained to begin with. The only reason IU I can figure they didn't is because they didn't want to offend the Bajorans who of course loved their emissary. Heck even Weyoun calls him naive.

It's a childish innocence and a desire to believe in good for everyone and that is understandable but Jake son of a war captain who lost his mother to a hostile alien force would be a little more worldly wise.

So he's young?
So he's acting like a reporter?

Or do you believe in some form of authoritarianism that his actions challenge?

 

[Voth commando1]

You had previously said he never faced adversity, not that he was naive.


So he's young?
So he's acting like a reporter?

Or do you believe in some form of authoritarianism that his actions challenge?

Tell me how he challenges authoritarianism. Remaining behind was a foolish risk that didn't have any appreciable benefit for anybody. Begging the intendant for a doctor when she was just about to shoot him didn't challenge her authoritarianism.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Tell me how he challenges authoritarianism. Remaining behind was a foolish risk that didn't have any appreciable benefit for anybody. Begging the intendant for a doctor when she was just about to shoot him didn't challenge her authoritarianism.

I'm not ascribing any challenge to his actions. I am trying to untie your responses, particularly this pearl-clutching when it comes Jake's relationship with Weyoun. Why do you want us to sit down and shut up in the presence of authoritarianism?

 

[Voth commando1]

I'm not ascribing any challenge to his actions. I am trying to untie your responses, particularly this pearl-clutching when it comes Jake's relationship with Weyoun. Why do you want us to sit down and shut up in the presence of authoritarianism?

He wasn't either a soldier, diplomat, or heck trained journalist. It was a hobby for him. Furthermore there is the little detail that he was by all definitions an "enemy alien". The dominion was at war with the federation and was well within its rights(by RL earth standards) to kill, expel, or detain him.

If it wasn't for his indirect connection with the Bajorans though his father why exactly would the dominion have allowed him to live?

How is writing articles critiquing dominion policy while on their station as a federation citizen a smart thing to do? How does that help anybody?

 

[Greg Cox]

I always liked Jake and Nog. As noted, they felt like real teenagers in a way that Wesley seldom did. And, honestly, the Siskos had the least dysfunctional family in Star Trek.

Think about it: Spock is estranged from his father, Picard is estranged from his brother, Riker is estranged from his father, Paris is estranged from his father, Bashir was estranged from his parents, Worf's family life was a soap opera, B'Elanna has family issues, Yar has an evil sister, Data has a evil brother, and even Deanna's mom drives her nuts most of the time.

Clearly, in the future we will conquer war, poverty, prejudice, and superstition, but families will never get along.

The Siskos, including Grandpa back on Earth, were the notable exception. And Jake always struck me a likable, believable kid, and all the more so because he wasn't supposed to be some sort of prodigy or role model.

 

[Nyotarules]

He didn't understand that when he chose to remain on Dominion occupied DS9 that free speech wasn't allowed.

After the intendant shot Mirror Jennifer in Shattered Mirror he asked "she needs a doctor" literally begging for help from the person that just shot the person he was asking for help for.

And I wouldn't the say the Borg are malicious-dangerous but not malicious.

Why should he understand, he was raised in a democratic, liberal society. How many present day teens living in the West could cope with living in a autocratic society? Think of the real life Western tourists who are arrested for kissing in public in Dubai, forgetting the rest of the world is not like their native, almost anything goes culture?
As for the Borg whether they are malicious or not, they still killed his mother, that would affect any human be the child or adult.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

How is writing articles critiquing dominion policy while on their station as a federation citizen a smart thing to do? How does that help anybody?

This is the heart of the problem with your analysis, one to which you refuse to admit: that your interpretation is based on a peculiar viewpoint, probably based in political ideology, that insists that, well, resistance is futile. You are assuming, or trying to convince others, that opposition produces no positive results, and that the best thing to do is cower and obey. That's historically not true. The fact that one person suffers because of their opposition does not mean that opposition cannot produce positive results. And although naive and inexperienced, Jake is not foolish, nor is anyInone in his position. There are Bikos and there are Mandelas. The start with simple ideas, but they mature. And the writer/journalist often has a a role in producing such positive change, some suffering for decades, but sometimes seeing a breakthrough, like Vaclav Havel. Indeed, the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe shows many instances in which brute force could only be used temporarily, and that reforms of some sort or other would be necessary. Writers like Havel worked within that difficult context.

 

[Voth commando1]

This is the heart of the problem with your analysis, one to which you refuse to admit: that your interpretation is based on a peculiar viewpoint, probably based in political ideology, that insists that, well, resistance is futile. You are assuming, or trying to convince others, that opposition produces no positive results, and that the best thing to do is cower and obey. That's historically not true. The fact that one person suffers because of their opposition does not mean that opposition cannot produce positive results. And although naive and inexperienced, Jake is not foolish, nor is anyInone in his position. There are Bikos and there are Mandelas. The start with simple ideas, but they mature. And the writer/journalist often has a a role in producing such positive change, some suffering for decades, but sometimes seeing a breakthrough, like Vaclav Havel. Indeed, the Soviet domination of Eastern Europe shows many instances in which brute force could only be used temporarily, and that reforms of some sort or other would be necessary. Writers like Havel worked within that difficult context.

He didn't live on that station and he didn't help anybody either on Cardassia, Bajor, or the gamma quadrant, much less his own federation.

Yes sometimes resistance is futile, sometimes accommodation is the path to survival. Jake wasn't a fighter, he wasn't a professional revolutionary or reformer, he was way out of his depth and living at the mercy of the dominion. Sure they wouldn't kill him because of his indirect ties to Bajor and Dukat wouldn't want to up the ante with a man he deemed his equal but that wasn't guaranteed.

Jake foolishly risked his life, his father and grandfather's hearts, and probably indirectly put other people at risk so could he write inspiring articles from behind enemy lines but wait the dominion censored him and Weyoun hardly a sympathetic character very gently told him he needed to use more appropriate language.

 

[Voth commando1]

Why should he understand, he was raised in a democratic, liberal society. How many present day teens living in the West could cope with living in a autocratic society? Think of the real life Western tourists who are arrested for kissing in public in Dubai, forgetting the rest of the world is not like their native, almost anything goes culture?
As for the Borg whether they are malicious or not, they still killed his mother, that would affect any human be the child or adult.

We'll see that's a problem westerners especially forget the rest of the world isn't as lax or generous as westerners are and sometimes that leads to tragic consequences.

It's best to know the customs and laws of the place you are visiting and make sure you follow them.

If you can't "do as the Romans do" for whatever reason then don't go somewhere where they will be consequences for that action.

 

[Jono]

He didn't live on that station and he didn't help anybody either on Cardassia, Bajor, or the gamma quadrant, much less his own federation.

Yet if Jake just laid down and did nothing it is possible that the Federation could have lost any chance they had to win the war. However, instead he stuck to his guns and found a way around the roadblock in his way. If not the Federation fleet could have still have been waiting at Starbase 375 for the Ninth Fleet to arrive when the minefield came down.

 

[DonIago]

I was going to say, while one could argue that it was coincidental, Jake's plan to smuggle messages through Morn made a difference to the course of the war.

 

[Morpheus 02]

i thought early Jake was Wesley done right -- a completely normal and believable kid..... I think for me, it felt a little like they were forcing reasons for him to stay on the show...so not my favorite....but definitely that ending shot with him and Kira made for a perfect series ending.

 

[Greg Cox]

i thought early Jake was Wesley done right -- a completely normal and believable kid.....

Exactly. Jake is proof that Trek can learn from its mistakes.

 

[kkt]

He didn't live on that station and he didn't help anybody either on Cardassia, Bajor, or the gamma quadrant, much less his own federation.

Yes sometimes resistance is futile, sometimes accommodation is the path to survival. Jake wasn't a fighter, he wasn't a professional revolutionary or reformer, he was way out of his depth and living at the mercy of the dominion. Sure they wouldn't kill him because of his indirect ties to Bajor and Dukat wouldn't want to up the ante with a man he deemed his equal but that wasn't guaranteed.

Jake foolishly risked his life, his father and grandfather's hearts, and probably indirectly put other people at risk so could he write inspiring articles from behind enemy lines but wait the dominion censored him and Weyoun hardly a sympathetic character very gently told him he needed to use more appropriate language.

You don't have to be a fighter to work for a revolution. Vaclav Havel was a playwright, Nelson Mandela was a lawyer. Being a revolutionary does carry risks, but the alternative is being a doormat. The revolutionaries working to overthrow from within an occupied country are as important as those working from outside. It's also very common for revolutionaries to be young, Jake was, what 19 then? Not too young to work for what you believe.

 

[Voth commando1]

You don't have to be a fighter to work for a revolution. Vaclav Havel was a playwright, Nelson Mandela was a lawyer. Being a revolutionary does carry risks, but the alternative is being a doormat. The revolutionaries working to overthrow from within an occupied country are as important as those working from outside. It's also very common for revolutionaries to be young, Jake was, what 19 then? Not too young to work for what you believe.

Revolutionaries fail more often than they succeed. And I think sometimes we forget the awesome power of the modern state and its apparatus. The dominion certainly qualifies.

Sometimes once can profit from being a "doormat." It isn't the most honorable of things but sometimes self preservation overrides principle. It is an eternal fact of human existence.

 

[kkt]

The modern state is powerful... but East Germany fell, despite possibly as many as 2 million people being Stasi informants. The USSR fell. And from internal pressure, not the result of foreign invasion.

Sure, they don't always succeed. But if no one tries, you know it won't succeed.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

But if no one tries, you know it won't succeed.

Come back, come back, to Mordor we will take you!

 

[spinagogue]

Most rebellious thing Jake did: stay behind to report war.
Most rebellious thing Wesley did (tie): performed illegal maneuver (then lied about it) and subverted Federation negotations.

The jury isn't out long on this one.




Volunteer?

Was kidding about that part. Thus the wink. - SPIN