Is Toxic "Star Wars" Fandom Imploding?

[Campe]

I think he just got a call from the studio. He was causing a lot of negativity before the film and the studio probably told him to stop.

Maybe. Or maybe he realized the journey wasn’t so bad after all. We don’t know. It doesn’t change the course of the events of the film. It appears that he’s coming back for IX so it doesn’t matter. Besides, just jumping to these conspiracy theories is not healthy or productive in any way, shape or form.

 

[Captain Nebula]

No misogyny or racism here. Just some clean honesty.

The Last Jedi Was Almost A Star Wars Movie

- We Almost got to see a Lightsaber Duel
- Those jokes were Almost funny
- There was Almost an exciting chase through space
- Somebody Almost sensed a disturbance in the Force
- We Almost got dialog that fit the Star Wars universe
- That Almost looked and moved like Yoda
- Rey Almost got Jedi training
- Supreme Leader Snoke Almost foresaw that coming
- Finn and Rose Almost found a guy to help them
- Two people Almost said "May the Force be with you" to each other
- Chewbacca Almost ate a porg
- We Almost heard someone say "I have a bad feeling about this"
- Poe Almost committed mutiny
- We Almost found out that Rey's parents were important
- Finn Almost made it to the battering ram laser
- Those Almost weren't the Droids we were looking for
- It was Almost the Star Wars Holiday Special
- It was Almost a script Mark Hamill agreed with
- Rian Johnson Almost deserves an Academy award
- Let's hope JJ Abrams doesn't Almost make a Star Wars movie with the next one

The 'Almost' Was Strong With This One.

 

[fireproof78]

I think he just got a call from the studio. He was causing a lot of negativity before the film and the studio probably told him to stop.

Have you read his statements? Because if it is studio talking points then they are some of the more interesting and personal studio talking points I've read:

It is tragic. I'm not a method actor, but one of the techniques a method actor will use is to try and use real-life experiences to relate to whatever fictional scenario he's involved in. The only thing I could think of, given the screenplay that I read, was that I was of the Beatles generation - ‘All You Need Is Love’, ‘peace and love’.

“I thought at that time, when I was a teenager: ‘By the time we get in power, there will be no more war, there will be no racial discrimination, and pot will be legal.’ So I'm one for three. When you think about it, [my generation is] a failure. The world is unquestionably worse now than it was then.”

Source

No misogyny or racism here. Just some clean honesty.

The Last Jedi Was Almost A Star Wars Movie

- We Almost got to see a Lightsaber Duel
- Those jokes were Almost funny
- There was Almost an exciting chase through space
- Somebody Almost sensed a disturbance in the Force
- We Almost got dialog that fit the Star Wars universe
- That Almost looked and moved like Yoda
- Rey Almost got Jedi training
- Supreme Leader Snoke Almost foresaw that coming
- Finn and Rose Almost found a guy to help them
- Two people Almost said "May the Force be with you" to each other
- Chewbacca Almost ate a porg
- We Almost heard someone say "I have a bad feeling about this"
- Poe Almost committed mutiny
- We Almost found out that Rey's parents were important
- Finn Almost made it to the battering ram laser
- Those Almost weren't the Droids we were looking for
- It was Almost the Star Wars Holiday Special
- It was Almost a script Mark Hamill agreed with
- Rian Johnson Almost deserves an Academy award
- Let's hope JJ Abrams doesn't Almost make a Star Wars movie with the next one

The 'Almost' Was Strong With This One.

Glad to see Star Wars movies now have a check list.

 

[Kibbin]

Anyways, the idea of Luke going into hiding after the fall of his academy came from Lucas and Co. not Rian.

Rian executed it, but the root of it came from discussions before even TFA was written.

Isn't it on record that Rian got rid of most of what JJ had mapped out for the next movie to write his own movie? If JJ didn't get a say why would the rest of Lucasfilm?

Anyway I look forward to the equal treatment of Ray when episode ten comes out and we find that she didn't make much of a difference to the universe after all, a new super power is ready to take over and she has buggered off to prop up a bar somewhere. Finn and Rose can get together in the next movie only for us to find out in the new trilogy that they had a messy divorce soon after and he went back to the first order. Meanwhile Poe hasn't done much of note it seems and has to go set up another resistance movement in the hope that they will be able to defeat the evil looming across the galaxy as his old one has become a stagnant democracy that barely warrants a mention in our new movie series.
I'm sure those loving the realism of Luke, Leia and Han's stories will be equally receptive to it happening to Rey too. It's not like these are supposed to be light hearted action adventure films after all.

 

[Tuskin38]

I think he just got a call from the studio. He was causing a lot of negativity before the film and the studio probably told him to stop.

No

 

[Tuskin38]

Isn't it on record that Rian got rid of most of what JJ had mapped out for the next movie to write his own movie? If JJ didn't get a say why would the rest of Lucasfilm?

Exactly, What JJ planned, not what was planned before JJ came on.

Rian hit the points, but fleshed them out with his own ideas.

The ‘Art of’ books made for TFA and TLJ show this.

 

[Kibbin]

Exactly, What JJ planned, not what was planned before JJ came on.

Okay so we know they browsed George's notes, going off the similaraties between the two (desert planet, young female lead, etc) they rewrote this into the new trilogy and your suggesting that JJ rewrote that into something else and what Rian changed it back? I'm not saying that's not what happened. I mean hell. I wasn't there. But as far as I'm aware wasn't JJ in on the scripting and direction fairly early on. Wasn't he on the same page as Disney when he went ahead with his plan.

 

[Tuskin38]

JJ changed the original outline when he came on. The original story started closer to where TLJ started, the Rey character went straight to Luke after finding the map on her home planet, or something like that.

JJ and co. decided to flesh out Rey’s journey to Luke more instead of starting directly with Luke. They felt bringing Luke in right away would overshadow everything.

 

[Kibbin]

JJ changed the original outline when he came on. The original story started closer to where TLJ started, the Rey character went straight to Luke after finding the map on her home planet, or something like that.

JJ and co. decided to flesh out Rey’s journey to Luke more instead of starting directly with Luke. They felt bringing Luke in right away would overshadow everything.

I did not know that. I thought he was involved a lot earlier. Thus we have another movie where I wish I lived in a universe where he hadn't helmed it. Not saying it would have been better but it can't have been worse i.m.o.

 

[Tuskin38]

Yeah the ‘Art of’ books for the movies are pretty interesting. They have concept art dating back to even when George was still involved with explanations of them.

George was the one who came up with Luke living on an island IIRC.

TheForce.net forums has a great thread dedicated to the movie’s development

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-development-of-the-sequel-trilogy.50046418/

 

[Kibbin]

Yeah the ‘Art of’ books for the movies are pretty interesting. They have concept art dating back to even when George was still involved with explanations of them.

George was the one who came up with Luke living on an island IIRC.

TheForce.net forums has a great thread dedicated to the movie’s development

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-development-of-the-sequel-trilogy.50046418/

Is this where news of the itty bitty bugs controlling the force comes from or is that from another source?
Wow, I haven't read much but it's interesting to see how much more I feel they should have taken control off George as soon as he started talking about killer teddy's. I apologise to JJ for some of the things I said about him. I knew that some of what George pitched made it into the movie, I saw an original art work of what would become Ray a while back on the tinterwebs but I didn't know so much had survived.

 

[Tuskin38]

Is this where news of the itty bitty bugs controlling the force comes from or is that from another source?

Another source.

 

[The Wormhole]

If JJ didn't get a say why would the rest of Lucasfilm?

Because Lucasfilm owns the damn franchise and Abrams doesn't. Of course Lucasfilm is going to get a say in what went on in TLJ, or do you actually believe Rian Johnson was allowed to simply waltz in and "ruin the franchise" without any creative oversight. Besides, as an Executive Producer on TLJ, if there was anything there Abrams objected to, he would have had veto authority.

 

[Campe]

Because Lucasfilm owns the damn franchise and Abrams doesn't. Of course Lucasfilm is going to get a say in what went on in TLJ, or do you actually believe Rian Johnson was allowed to simply waltz in and "ruin the franchise" without any creative oversight. Besides, as an Executive Producer on TLJ, if there was anything there Abrams objected to, he would have had veto authority.

No kidding. Rian pitched an idea. LFL liked it. And it wasn't just Kathleen Kennedy in the room. There were likely multiple pitch meetings, and if Bob Iger wasn't in the room on one of those? Well, he'd be a pretty terrible CEO for a major entertainment company. This was something that was part of a much larger plan for Star Wars, a property that cost Disney $4.05 BILLION. They're not going to just let a director run wild. That's why they fired Lord and Miller! But Kennedy is happy with Johnson. Iger and the board of directors are happy with Johnson. Just a small number of fans aren't. I cannot emphasize this enough.

 

[fireproof78]

I'm sure those loving the realism of Luke, Leia and Han's stories will be equally receptive to it happening to Rey too. It's not like these are supposed to be light hearted action adventure films after all.

Sure, why not? These films moved in to a dramatic presentation (a family soap opera, as Lucas once put it) the moment ESB revealed Vader to be Luke's father and Obi-Wan was a liar. How light hearted...

No kidding. Rian pitched an idea. LFL liked it. And it wasn't just Kathleen Kennedy in the room. There were likely multiple pitch meetings, and if Bob Iger wasn't in the room on one of those? Well, he'd be a pretty terrible CEO for a major entertainment company. This was something that was part of a much larger plan for Star Wars, a property that cost Disney $4.05 BILLION. They're not going to just let a director run wild. That's why they fired Lord and Miller! But Kennedy is happy with Johnson. Iger and the board of directors are happy with Johnson. Just a small number of fans aren't. I cannot emphasize this enough.

I cannot emphasize it enough either. Well said.

 

[Kibbin]

Sure, why not? These films moved in to a dramatic presentation (a family soap opera, as Lucas once put it) the moment ESB revealed Vader to be Luke's father and Obi-Wan was a liar. How light hearted...

Oh it could get dark at times but the heroes are always heroes where as the last jedi was about guilt, trauma, disappointment, failure, child slavery, disappointment, murder and disappointment. You might have liked those things but you can't deny that they were deliberately trying to subvert the expectations and tropes of Star Wars. As for that second bit well I'll just bump GL back onto the list of terrible story tellers a place nobody is shocked to find him after the prequels or his talk of itty bitty bugs who control the force.

 

[Spot261]

Anyway I look forward to the equal treatment of Ray when episode ten comes out and we find that she didn't make much of a difference to the universe after all, a new super power is ready to take over and she has buggered off to prop up a bar somewhere. Finn and Rose can get together in the next movie only for us to find out in the new trilogy that they had a messy divorce soon after and he went back to the first order. Meanwhile Poe hasn't done much of note it seems and has to go set up another resistance movement in the hope that they will be able to defeat the evil looming across the galaxy as his old one has become a stagnant democracy that barely warrants a mention in our new movie series.

Sure, why not? People fading away into obscurity is what happens in life, just like SW, whilst everything we know about the SW universe is characterised by a swinging pendulum in the power balance between two opposing extremes. The Sith have been defeated many times and returned many times, equally some version of the Republic has been a recurring theme for millennia. Both can offer stability for periods, but never permanence.

I'm sure those loving the realism of Luke, Leia and Han's stories will be equally receptive to it happening to Rey too. It's not like these are supposed to be light hearted action adventure films after all.

That's part of what they are, but not the whole story. There is high drama, pathos, gritty realism, human weakness and failings on display, the sense of hopelessness and impermanence, the futility of any attempt to make a lasting impact, the fragility of human endeavour and the nihilism that goes with that realisation. None of these themes are new to the franchise.

Oh it could get dark at times but the heroes are always heroes where as the last jedi was about guilt, trauma, disappointment, failure, child slavery, disappointment, murder and disappointment.

We've seen our heroes slaughter whole communities and a school full of innocent children, succumb to corruption and greed, abandon their adherence to justice in order to maintain their power base, practise deception and manipulate others to die in service of their goals. We've seen them arrogant, thoughtless, traumatised, selfishly indulgent, ignorant and blinded by hubris and self importance.

What's new?

 

[Spot261]

Me too. Rey is untouchable now, any critiquing of her is not allowed

It is, but when that critiquing is this weak it's bound to get shot down

 

[Refuge]

Oh it could get dark at times but the heroes are always heroes where as the last jedi was about guilt, trauma, disappointment, failure, child slavery, disappointment, murder and disappointment. You might have liked those things but you can't deny that they were deliberately trying to subvert the expectations and tropes of Star Wars. As for that second bit well I'll just bump GL back onto the list of terrible story tellers a place nobody is shocked to find him after the prequels or his talk of itty bitty bugs who control the force.

And death. The Last Jedi almost required the death of Luke to make the way clear for the next generation. I'm surprised people would not expect a reaction from the fans.

 

[Spot261]

Let's be honest here, you haven't offered any new or insightful in months, every single criticism is entirely within the norms of the franchise and not once has anyone explained why those story telling conventions should apply differently to Rey than any other character. You keep flogging the same old dead horse that even your allies have largely given up on and all you are offering by way of comebacks are sarky and obtuse one line digs in an attempt to stoke the fires.

And death. The Last Jedi almost required the death of Luke to make the way clear for the next generation. I'm surprised people would not expect a reaction from the fans.

Did you expect him to live forever? FFS Refuge have you nothing better than this?