Is Toxic "Star Wars" Fandom Imploding?

[mos6507]

it's the unresolved, darker middle chapter).

TLJ doesn't feel like a middle-chapter, though. It feels like an ending, especially the last bit with the kid and the broom.

It was so busy wiping away the past that it left little behind in its wake other than Kylo wanting to chase down Rey, but just about everything else setup in Force Awakens is gone or neutralized.

As for toys sales, Hasbro said they erred in releasing TLJ merch in September.

Yeah, timing. That's the only reason. Come on.

 

[Jinn]

Well said. I've never harassed anyone on twitter, let alone anyone connected with a production of a movie. Or a characters portrayal. Like with anything I'm into. I'll bitch about it on forums like this, but never would I attack anyone involved in the production.

That's great!

That said, if said people involved in the production want to mix it up with fans on twitter, then I don't think they should be immune from criticisms just because they are who they are. If those same actors and directors are gonna take a stance, act like jerks to fans online, then why would I consider that harassment by toxic fans, when those people who are in the industry engage in that behavior, and then when it gets too hot, cite toxic fans, or punch Nazis, and then bail on their platform or soapbox. If they didn't engage, then there would be no problem.

Well, criticism is one thing. If someone didn't like TLJ and writes Rian Johnson on Twitter "Didn't like the movie, Luke was my favorite character and now he's dead" that's hardly toxic. If they say that Rian Johnson is worse than Hitler or even send him death threads that's a whole nother story. And you should consider that harassment, as that is what it is. I also wonder in what way exactly Rian Johnson etc. acted online that you're reffering to here. The "worst" thing he did that I could find was calling a twitter user who posted something snarky under a post about Carrie Fisher's passing a "manbaby".

Interestingly, I thought mods were supposed to be fair, not engage in pushing one side of an agenda over another. Oh well..seems this is the new "Fairness" everyone is talking about.

The mods are entitled to their opinion. Of course they have to be fair when it comes to active mod duties and letting a comment like "Go die you fucking conservative" fly while giving someone who said "Go die you fucking liberal" (both hypothetical posts) a pass would be very wrong. But that isn't the case here, plus the particular mods who participate in this discussion aren't even mods of this sub-forum and thus don't have any actual power here. At least I think that's how it works.

 

[jaime]

@Locutus of Bored, your time to shine has come


Sadly, I have to agree here. Star Wars does suffer from the same systemic problems as many other big budget movies do, and that is a real shame.

It wouldn’t be a problem, if they didn’t dance and jump and cling to declaring how great they are on this score. There’s nothing saying they have to push the envelope, it’s ok if they want to protect their brand with a little small c conservatism of traditionalism or what have you. They don’t have to take those risks if they choose not to, but...but...they shouldn’t sing about it like they are, some of us shouldn’t sing their praises for the small potatoes, when they are sneaking things like this by with no fanfare. It’s dishonest.

 

[Spot261]

Well said. I've never harassed anyone on twitter, let alone anyone connected with a production of a movie. Or a characters portrayal. Like with anything I'm into. I'll bitch about it on forums like this, but never would I attack anyone involved in the production.

Maybe you haven't, but that's beside the point, we have film makers projecting a certain image of how they want the show to be, we have fans responding with torrents of abuse and threats. It takes a strange perspective to look at the exchange and refer to the producers as "toxic".

That said, if said people involved in the production want to mix it up with fans on twitter, then I don't think they should be immune from criticisms just because they are who they are. If those same actors and directors are gonna take a stance, act like jerks to fans online, then why would I consider that harassment by toxic fans, when those people who are in the industry engage in that behavior, and then when it gets too hot, cite toxic fans, or punch Nazis, and then bail on their platform or soapbox. If they didn't engage, then there would be no problem.

Have we seen production staff harassing individual fans on Twitter and calling for them to be personally and professionally ruined, not to mention harmed physically?

Interestingly, I thought mods were supposed to be fair, not engage in pushing one side of an agenda over another. Oh well..seems this is the new "Fairness" everyone is talking about.

Has there been a mod acting unfairly?

 

[Neroon]

It's a two way street darling.. You can't make a rational assessment with out looking at both sides of the problem. Your POV seems to assert there's only one villain in all this. I'm simply saying there's another. It takes two. And as far as harrassment. Kelly Marie Tran left Twitter. Never said why. But everyone else lied and said it was from fan hate. Without a,statement from the actress, herself. That rumor gets passed around like it's true. And even the toxic master director himself did the same, and yet no communication from Tran confirming or denying anything. Same too of Ridley the queen of Mary Sue-ism herself.

So with no real proof. The assertion fans are the reason is just laughable. It's not that I can't see anything. I'm perfectly wide eyed and clear. However, some people are so blinded by ideology, they can't see anything else. All they see is colored by some convoluted spiraling nonsense of philosophical ideological garbage, and thus turn and twist and contort everything so it can fit into that tiny close minded box.

Warning for trolling. Comments to PM

 

[fireproof78]

TLJ doesn't feel like a middle-chapter, though. It feels like an ending, especially the last bit with the kid and the broom.

It was so busy wiping away the past that it left little behind in its wake other than Kylo wanting to chase down Rey, but just about everything else setup in Force Awakens is gone or neutralized.

I swear I watch different films than everyone else.

 

[starsuperion]

That's great!


Well, criticism is one thing. If someone didn't like TLJ and writes Rian Johnson on Twitter "Didn't like the movie, Luke was my favorite character and now he's dead" that's hardly toxic. If they say that Rian Johnson is worse than Hitler or even send him death threads that's a whole nother story. And you should consider that harassment, as that is what it is. I also wonder in what way exactly Rian Johnson etc. acted online that you're reffering to here. The "worst" thing he did that I could find was calling a twitter user who posted something snarky under a post about Carrie Fisher's passing a "manbaby".


The mods are entitled to their opinion. Of course they have to be fair when it comes to active mod duties and letting a comment like "Go die you fucking conservative" fly while giving someone who said "Go die you fucking liberal" (both hypothetical posts) a pass would be very wrong. But that isn't the case here, plus the particular mods who participate in this discussion aren't even mods of this sub-forum and thus don't have any actual power here. At least I think that's how it works.

Well I'm not saying mods can't have opinions, or engage in discussions. I suppose the issue is subjective. But if a mod engages in active banning for "perceived" inflections as trolling or condescension, that's a bit off the mark, I would say. Where is the line, that's what I'd like to know. If you're from the south, sweetie or darling is a common polite phrase. If perceived as condescension, does that necessitate a ban? Not that I'm from the south. But I did live there for a time. It's hard to know what's what sometimes. Especially in heated debate.

 

[Jinn]

Well I'm not saying mods can't have opinions, or engage in discussions. I suppose the issue is subjective. But if a mod engages in active banning for "perceived" inflections as trolling or condescension, that's a bit off the mark, I would say. Where is the line, that's what I'd like to know. If you're from the south, sweetie or darling is a common polite phrase. If perceived as condescension, does that necessitate a ban? Not that I'm from the south. But I did live there for a time. It's hard to know what's what sometimes. Especially in heated debate.

Well, TrekBBS doesn't immediately ban, usually you get warnings and infractions before that happens, so while I agree that your example would be off the mark I also think that it is extremely rare, unless some severe cases of trolling, maybe.

For the condescension part; it's true that different locations have different connotations for various words, but generally I'd think that it is better to avoid these particular words if you know that they're considered condescening to people who may be involved in the discussion. (Unless you want to be condescending of course) If you're on a board that's only populated by people from the South that's probably something different, but here?

But again, even if one is not aware that for example "sweetie" sounds condescending to a lot of people one can change their behaviour after learning that. None of us are perfect (well, except for me, obviously) but we can learn from our mistakes.

 

[Spot261]

Well I'm not saying mods can't have opinions, or engage in discussions. I suppose the issue is subjective. But if a mod engages in active banning for "perceived" inflections as trolling or condescension, that's a bit off the mark, I would say. Where is the line, that's what I'd like to know. If you're from the south, sweetie or darling is a common polite phrase. If perceived as condescension, does that necessitate a ban? Not that I'm from the south. But I did live there for a time. It's hard to know what's what sometimes. Especially in heated debate.

It came across as condescending , patronising and sexist. Sorry but there's no way around it. I've been close friends with @Awesome Possum for years and wouldn't dream of calling her "darling" the way you did, especially in a heated discussion where it starts to sound like a deliberate provocation.

As for how a mod is treating you though, I'm pretty sure no one's even threatened you with action? She glossed over it with far more grace than she really had to and as has been pointed out isn't a mod in here in either case.

EDIT: just saw the warning, my bad

 

[jaime]

Well, TrekBBS doesn't immediately ban, usually you get warnings and infractions before that happens, so while I agree that your example would be off the mark I also think that it is extremely rare, unless some severe cases of trolling, maybe.

For the condescension part; it's true that different locations have different connotations for various words, but generally I'd think that it is better to avoid these particular words if you know that they're considered condescening to people who may be involved in the discussion. (Unless you want to be condescending of course) If you're on a board that's only populated by people from the South that's probably something different, but here?

But again, even if one is not aware that for example "sweetie" sounds condescending to a lot of people one can change their behaviour after learning that. None of us are perfect (well, except for me, obviously) but we can learn from our mistakes.

As a Londoner am I allowed to humorously jump up and down and claim cultural appropriation every time there’s a term of endearment?
Can’t move for babe, love, darlin’, sunshine, mate, me old china, round here some days.

Edit: forgot Treacle. Which is just sweetheart. Which I also forgot.

 

[Jinn]

As a Londoner am I allowed to humorously jump up and down and claim cultural appropriation every time there’s a term of endearment?

Well, I'm not mod,
but sure, why not

 

[jaime]

Well, I'm not mod,
but sure, why not

I’m not mod either.
Got the leather jacket to prove it. XD

 

[Jinn]

I’m not mod either.
Got the leather jacket to prove it. XD

Oh, a real rebel. Very fitting for the Star Wars forum

 

[jaime]

Oh, a real rebel. Very fitting for the Star Wars forum

Lol.
This ain’t my cause Princess.

Edit just to clarify: I am not aware of any royal connection in Jinns background, I am not a rugged smuggler. I am happily married dad, and Jinn is a very balanced individual. Possibly in the force. Any resemblance to characters living or dead in the Star Wars universe, or likely to die soon in the next movie, is purely coincidental.

That should keep mods and Lucasfilm off my back, and avoid any imperial entanglements.

 

[Jinn]

Lol.
This ain’t my cause Princess.

Shit, how did you know? Now I have to change my identity again *walks off while cursing*

Edit just to clarify: I am not aware of any royal connection in Jinns background, I am not a rugged smuggler. I am happily married dad, and Jinn is a very balanced individual. Possibly in the force. Any resemblance to characters living or dead in the Star Wars universe, or likely to die soon in the next movie, is purely coincidental.

That should keep mods and Lucasfilm off my back, and avoid any imperial entanglements.

Lucasfilms, the company that shut down Star Wars the Mucisal by school children? Yeah, they're not going to let you off the hook Was nice knowing you, man!

 

[Kibbin]

Lucasfilms, the company that shut down Star Wars the Mucisal by school children? Yeah, they're not going to let you off the hook Was nice knowing you, man!

Is that true? I though Lucasfilm was usually okay with fan stuff so long as it was clearly parody and or satire. I.E none of these fancy Star Trek style fan films that try to be the next star trek (I know that's changed in recent years)

TLJ is "nihilistic" is that it's the unresolved, darker middle chapter

I think the difference here compared to say ESB is that we had a clear cliffhanger. Is Vader telling the truth? Was Obi Wan lying? How will this affect their next fight or Vader's relationship with the weird hooded glowing dude?
Here Luke died, end of. Luke was in hiding with a scowl on his face and a space cow teat between his bearded lips. No unresolved element there.

many of the things about the new SW films that fans complain about were part of George Lucas' own treatments, even the bit about Luke secluding himself after his school doesn't turn out so great.

People complained about George all the way through the last trilogy. Are you surprised that his contributions to this one are met with equal scorn and ridicule? Though he at least made sure to get the toys in and adevrtised properly. I'm not saying this was a good thing as it meant we got three cool looking but shallow and unmemorable villains instead of one Darth Vader but credit where it is due George hit the toy sales.

No one's suggesting some sort of Jazz equivalent "free form" in SW, but arbitrarily applying that which has come before as a template is hardly conducive to generating fresh and new work, especially in an era where the movies are dominated by the formulaic.

If you want fresh and new work don't resurrect a years old franchise. If you want to make Star Wars (because it's got brand recognition) then make Star Wars. However if you see the formula as too restrictive then do something else, a new fancier, shiner science fantasy trilogy about wars between the stars. This was especially a problem with Rian who wanted to break the rules because he could, wanted to let the past die because he could but is all too happy to make a motion picture based on a franchise that has been running since the seventies. It feels a little two faced to me. (Or at least do a Battlestar and reboot to mark the separation between what you're doing and what has gone before)

"On social media a few unhealthy people can cast a big shadow on the wall, but over the past 4 years I’ve met lots of real fellow SW fans. We like & dislike stuff but we do it with humor, love & respect. We’re the VAST majority, we’re having fun & doing just fine."
- Rian Johnson

I think this is the biggest problem with this thread. It was made to vent about twitter trolls and harassers but they aren't here just a rather vocal portion of the bbs who didn't like the movie. I'm not saying I know everyone here (nor do I want to you 'cos your all a bunch of nerds arguing about silly fantasy movies on the internet ) but I don't think we have any of those people here so we're just going to go round and round in circles with one half of the thread calling the other half stupid for liking a movie and the other half saying the same thing for the exact opposite reason.
(Cue someone arguing with me that it isn't half the thread saying they don't like the movie and that represents the population at large in 3...2...1...)

 

[Jinn]

Is that true? I though Lucasfilm was usually okay with fan stuff so long as it was clearly parody and or satire. I.E none of these fancy Star Trek style fan films that try to be the next star trek (I know that's changed in recent years)

I vaguely remember that happening years ago, but googling for it, I can't find that anymore. I probably misremembered, so, sorry about that

 

[Kibbin]

I vaguely remember that happening years ago, but googling for it, I can't find that anymore. I probably misremembered, so sorry about that

Eh I wasn't about to use your words as damming evidence in some court case or something . I was just a little shocked because they used to be big on letting things like that slide so long as it couldn't be linked or confused with the real thing. I'm still not saying I disbelieve you. I know cub camps that have been shut down because they sold themselves to the kids in the cub packs as Harry Potter themed and thus received cease and desist letters from WB and visits from men in black suits to make sure said camps were called off. Bearing in mind this was local cub camps, not some money making, district, country or likewise wide camps.

 

[fireproof78]

I think the difference here compared to say ESB is that we had a clear cliffhanger. Is Vader telling the truth? Was Obi Wan lying? How will this affect their next fight or Vader's relationship with the weird hooded glowing dude?
Here Luke died, end of. Luke was in hiding with a scowl on his face and a space cow teat between his bearded lips. No unresolved element there.

No, just no, at least not for me. I was eager to see the next episode to answer all the cliff hangers left at the end of the film.

 

[Kibbin]

No, just no, at least not for me. I was eager to see the next episode to answer all the cliff hangers left at the end of the film.

I'm not saying there wasn't cliff hangers at the end of the movie but the depressing qualities that were in ESB were linked to the cliffhanger (Han captured etc) while the depressing qualities of TLJ, at least some of them, can stand on their own away from the cliff hangers in the movie. Thus it's not fair to write off the dark qualities of this movie as simply because it is the middle film in the series and thus just like ESB