Is Toxic "Star Wars" Fandom Imploding?
- Thread starter Locutus of Bored
- Start date
Yeah you really have to twist and contort to see someone being mercilessly trolled and bullied as leaving a platform because of that. What an absurd leap.
Going to add another comment and I don't wish to be defensive but I truly don't understand the notion that some in the fan base are being deemed a problem because they're not watching or reacting the way they *should*. What the hell? That is beyond arrogantAbsolutely people shouldn't be harassing the production team but giving a critique and a rating is a given when you put something out there and especially when it is sold as a product. Now that is real life.
And yet you are positioning yourself in support of an argument that tells us why we go to the movies and why in this case we are wrong to have enjoyed doing so? In fact you did exactly that in your preceding post.
If this were limited to forum comments either way I'd agree with you, but it isn't, it's happening on a much larger scale and having a much greater impact. Equally if you look back over the comments of the poster you've just gushed over you'll see it's exactly the other way round. He is the one deciding how others should watch the film, not me.
Does it not? Seems to me you're pretty much basing your entire argument on what you've seen on Youtube, millions are doing the same. Can you substantiate this claim that Youtube is somehow not a platform for offering people a disproportionately wide audience, whilst being a perfect illustration of how it is exactly that? Maybe the Russians wasted all their money.
It's certainly killed a couple of careers and left a lot of people terrorised and unwilling to engage further with the public, given that the actual toxic content out there is flowing in the opposite direction from the way you seem to be claiming.
You've been politely called out on a couple of dodgy forum posts, whilst people involved in making the film have felt they had to go into hiding because of the abuse and threats. Which is toxic?
No, the high profile public attacks on the staff and crew which have become so personal, so aggressive and so hateful it's left people essentially giving up on their careers are what is at issue, not a couple of comments on a Star Trek forum responding to your (let's be honest here) consistently weak posts.
I'm not going to add to the airplay any of the vitriolic videos out there are getting, but it hardly takes long to find out why people have felt so harassed and intimidated.
Yes, but not in the way you seem to be claiming. No one;'s gone into hiding as a result of fans who like the film. Where is the proof you claim is out there?
And you offer an opinion piece as proof.....
You do realise this was one of the most commercially successful films ever made right?
Oh FFS, could you be any more inappropriate?
I know and that in itself is fair, but look at the bigger picture here, that harassment is being treated as equivalent to the discussions we're seeing here on the TBBS. People's lives are being ruined over the attacks based on why the film is wrong and why we shouldn't watch it the way we do, the dynamic is exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.
Some of the fans hating it for putting girls in their Wars are ‘toxic’.
Some of the fans attacking anyone who didn’t think it was the second coming are also ‘toxic’.
Some people just don’t like that a company took a product they had supported their whole life over, changed all the ingredients, declared it better than the original, and asked them all to keep on supporting it. These people are not toxic.
It’s like Coca Cola or Cadbury’s chocolate.
Except you can’t go back to the original recipe and slap a label on the package to get your consumers back.
Disney/Lucasfilm dropped the ball.
Turns out there’s a sizeable group of Star Wars fans, new or old, that just can’t play nice with others.
Now we get all the hate and fighting, because it’s the twenty-first century and everything is a good vs evil fight in people’s heads, probably cos we can’t get a decent story about it anymore and, to borrow a phrase, there’s no more heroes anymore. Whatever happened to the heroes?
Me? Well I am a Star Wars fan mostly by association and legacy. It’s one of those things I grew up with. But I don’t like being associated with either group of nutters. You all can keep it. I am pissed off at both sides, and especially Disney, for turning it into something that kids are losing interest in, and a fandom that is no longer what it was as recently as ten years ago.
Come back George, even Jar Jar is forgiven.
Some of the fans attacking anyone who didn’t think it was the second coming are also ‘toxic’.
Some people just don’t like that a company took a product they had supported their whole life over, changed all the ingredients, declared it better than the original, and asked them all to keep on supporting it. These people are not toxic.
It’s like Coca Cola or Cadbury’s chocolate.
Except you can’t go back to the original recipe and slap a label on the package to get your consumers back.
Disney/Lucasfilm dropped the ball.
Turns out there’s a sizeable group of Star Wars fans, new or old, that just can’t play nice with others.
Now we get all the hate and fighting, because it’s the twenty-first century and everything is a good vs evil fight in people’s heads, probably cos we can’t get a decent story about it anymore and, to borrow a phrase, there’s no more heroes anymore. Whatever happened to the heroes?
Me? Well I am a Star Wars fan mostly by association and legacy. It’s one of those things I grew up with. But I don’t like being associated with either group of nutters. You all can keep it. I am pissed off at both sides, and especially Disney, for turning it into something that kids are losing interest in, and a fandom that is no longer what it was as recently as ten years ago.
Come back George, even Jar Jar is forgiven.
You bring up a good point about kids maybe losing interest. They have Rey but they could've had both! Rey and that old fart Luke. It's ageist I tell you. Old heroes are doomed.
Not sure if you are referring to my posts, but just in case...
I am not telling anyone how to watch the films. I am offering an opinion on how the films should be written, and why the previous films are how they are. I hold that opinion because I am very interested in, and study, storytelling and and writing, and partially because of the briefest of brief conversations with George Lucas a long time ago. I am a bit of an outlier in SW fandom in that (aside from not considering myself a fan as such) I never hated the prequels, and was lucky enough to actually ask George about the films face to face once. They are in part meant for kids, they are supposed to have a moral dimension, or at least, under Lucas they were. But tbh, I don’t think you need to have chatted to the bloke to know that. It’s kind of obvious.
*shrug*
But we can keep turning the toys of our childhood into things to batter each other about sketchy politics with. There’s nothing better to do with them apparently. This century sucks.
You bring up a good point about kids maybe losing interest. They have Rey but they could've had both! Rey and that old fart Luke. It's ageist I tell you. Old heroes are doomed.
It’s even subtler sadly. My little one is in peak Star Wars age. But Rebels has been ditched by him...because it blinded Kanaan and got Dark too much and too quickly. He asked how it ended, and I had to tell him. He won’t watch it. He’s not interested in the new sequels too much either, because again, he doesn’t want people to keep dying in it. People can say I am too honest, but he knows that Ben Solo kills his Daddy. Why would he want to see that? Thank goodness he’s technically too young to see the films, Because these are things that are too dark for kids the age I was when Star Wars was my toy (age three to six in my case) and offer no respite. He still likes the Lego versions, and we still play with the toys, he likes some of the books that came out prior to it going off the deep end...but somethings just not there in it for him anymore. There’s more to it, but that’s about the sum of it. Too much grey morality. We are expected to sympathise with villains too much these days.
You know I'm reminded of my little niece watching Nemo and enjoying it BUT then this squeal. She was almost in tears worrying about him. She was reassured but so on the edge of her seat. She's such a sweet kid and the old classics of the Disney heroines and Princesses resound. When Disney softened fairy tales they knew what they were doing. The origins are literally pretty grim. As for my nephew he likes Ben Ten.
I wish in a way there was the two level approach to story with present day Star Wars, one for the grown ups and one for the rest of us. There was no shame in Leia being a Princess or Luke being starry eyed. All this analysis of character now has made it like homework.
Oh, is this one of those threads about the abject failure of The Last Jedi which was the highest-grossing film of 2017, and 2016?
I wish I could fail like that.
"On social media a few unhealthy people can cast a big shadow on the wall, but over the past 4 years I’ve met lots of real fellow SW fans. We like & dislike stuff but we do it with humor, love & respect. We’re the VAST majority, we’re having fun & doing just fine."
- Rian Johnson
I wish I could fail like that.
"On social media a few unhealthy people can cast a big shadow on the wall, but over the past 4 years I’ve met lots of real fellow SW fans. We like & dislike stuff but we do it with humor, love & respect. We’re the VAST majority, we’re having fun & doing just fine."
- Rian Johnson
It made money. Whoop de do. So does the drug dealer four streets over. If that’s the metric by which we are defining somethings worth.
The fandom is full of idiots on both sides of its current divide. It’s current divide is because of decisions made by the creative team, as well as by the polarised world and easy internet keyboard warriors that proliferate today. Is the fandom toxic ? Much of it seems to be, and is obsessed with fighting like cats in a bag. I’ll give the award for most abhorrent to the ones that drive actors off Twitter, but ain’t gonna pretend everything is rosy on the other side, and is definitely not great in Lucasfilm either.
Re: the Wall Street Journal article, yes Disney probably hoped TLJ would do closer to 1.6 billion and it ended up doing 1.3. But part of that forecast was based on un unrealistic hope that Star Wars would start to infiltrate the Chinese market, and the Chinese don't care much about Star Wars, as the original trilogy was banned back in the day.
Forbes pointed out that the middle film in SW trilogies always do the worst of the three (and part of the reason some feel TLJ is "nihilistic" is that it's the unresolved, darker middle chapter).
But yes, TLJ underperformed according to expectations, but not nearly to the degree that some angry fans are suggesting, as it still grossed more worldwide than any film released over the previous 24 months (since The Force Awakens.)
As for toys sales, Hasbro said they erred in releasing TLJ merch in September.
Forbes pointed out that the middle film in SW trilogies always do the worst of the three (and part of the reason some feel TLJ is "nihilistic" is that it's the unresolved, darker middle chapter).
But yes, TLJ underperformed according to expectations, but not nearly to the degree that some angry fans are suggesting, as it still grossed more worldwide than any film released over the previous 24 months (since The Force Awakens.)
As for toys sales, Hasbro said they erred in releasing TLJ merch in September.
I was responding to fans who mistakenly believe TLJ was a financial disaster (they're quite common).
As for other metrics besides Twitter mobs, let's see, there's Metacritic (less rigged than Rotten Tomatoes) which logs The Last Jedi as "universal critical acclaim."
Fair enough. It’s not a financial disaster. Just didn’t make as much moolah as they would of liked. (Which if they are honest, the answer is ‘all the moolah, mwhahahah’) but films don’t work that way anymore anyway.
Universal critical acclaim? There’s a damn lot of egg in that pudding. But then criticism ain’t what it used to be either.
Star Wars, not just it’s fandom, just ain’t as fun as it used to be.
I'm not denying the nature of the movie could have depressed toy sales- i.e. the big Battle o' Crait set piece; some children might have been less interested in recreating a battle wherein all the heroes quickly crash their ships. Ha. Rogue One and Last Jedi are darker and less "toyetic," though Forest Whitaker interrogating with his psychic octopus sounds like a fun play experience to me.
And there is a segment of the older fans who tentatively bought Force Awakens merch before deciding Disney-Lucasfilm isn't their bag. (Their toy sales have been declining since Force Awakens, but kids in general play with traditional toys less than they used to; the kids I know prefer staring at their iPads.)
As for the Solo flop, many of us saw that coming, even before the director trouble. As for the pronouncements of doom, I'll wait until JJ Abrams "paints his masterpiece" to judge the fate of Disney-Lucasfilm.
Note- many of the things about the new SW films that fans complain about were part of George Lucas' own treatments, even the bit about Luke secluding himself after his school doesn't turn out so great.
Edit: I looked up Reddit comments about Last Jedi toys, one complaint is that kids and adults want new figures and alien figures, and most of TLJ new and alien figures were from the Canto casino, and there weren't many toys for that.
Persons also thought the PORG toys were substandard - get it together, Hasbro.
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Which is fine, but personally I feel let down by the behaviour of some of my peers far more and that's the problem.
And that's all I'm saying, I don't think there is a "should". Even (particularly?)in storytelling meant for kids the archetypes exist after the fact. They aren't (or shouldn't be) guides to some sort of correct form, that completely defies the purpose of the creative process. In anything which we see as having more weight (and I completely agree products made for kids can be multilayered), the work itself should define it's own legacy, not be shoehorned into an existing one for reasons no one here has even attempted to offer.
The idea observed trends in existing art should be employed as rules for future work seems to me pointlessly stifling, especially where the observation of those trends was never intended for any such purpose. No one's suggesting some sort of Jazz equivalent "free form" in SW, but arbitrarily applying that which has come before as a template is hardly conducive to generating fresh and new work, especially in an era where the movies are dominated by the formulaic.
It’s fiddly. There’s no reason you can’t be creative within a given formula, if that given formula is part of your intent. But the new films have taken much of the window dressing and set pieces, the visuals as it were, and surface archetypes, and then tried to bend it to the trends of today (kill your darlings, especially if someone is Lee made them and they are in fact everyone’s darlings. Bonus points for the headshot on hope.)
In short, I don’t think they got it. Johnson definitely needed another run, and Lucasfilm needed to be tighter and have an actual idea.
It’s frustating, because I don’t see any criticism from ...what shall we call it? The left? The light side? The side that isn’t totally made of rectum? Who knows....about the little things that crept in unnoticed under the furore. Some of fandom were all about the Finn/Poe pairing...guess what, ain’t happening, love interests added!...and some people saw a Finn/Rey pairing...guess what! White Girl/Black Boy ain’t happening in a Disney movie people! Here’s a nice safe ‘minority’ love interest for the other minority.
But we won’t see that, because it goes under the radar in all the other stuff around TLJ.
They hid their conservatism well.
I won’t even mention the heavy handed but mixed metaphors that did crop up when they attempted a message (free the animals! Never mind the slave children that are gonna get the blame!) because that happens sometimes in Star Wars (poor Jawas. Poor Tatooine farmers. Collateral damage.)
Too much is made of the difficulty of playing with existing toys and doing something new without breaking the old to pieces. I submit, yet again, this time on a different fandom, that it is a weakness in modern creators. They don’t make something new because something old brings in the bucks. But they break what they borrow because they are thoughtless and clumsy.
@Locutus of Bored, your time to shine has come
Sadly, I have to agree here. Star Wars does suffer from the same systemic problems as many other big budget movies do, and that is a real shame.
Well said. I've never harassed anyone on twitter, let alone anyone connected with a production of a movie. Or a characters portrayal. Like with anything I'm into. I'll bitch about it on forums like this, but never would I attack anyone involved in the production. That said, if said people involved in the production want to mix it up with fans on twitter, then I don't think they should be immune from criticisms just because they are who they are. If those same actors and directors are gonna take a stance, act like jerks to fans online, then why would I consider that harassment by toxic fans, when those people who are in the industry engage in that behavior, and then when it gets too hot, cite toxic fans, or punch Nazis, and then bail on their platform or soapbox. If they didn't engage, then there would be no problem.
As for me. If I don't like something, I don't buy it. As a consumer. It's that simple. That is what I did with TLJ and Solo. No merchandise, no books, no comics, no tees. The franchise for me stopped at ROTJ. I could care less about the new Disney line.
Interestingly, I thought mods were supposed to be fair, not engage in pushing one side of an agenda over another. Oh well..seems this is the new "Fairness" everyone is talking about.