This is why having StarFleet as the only division within the UFP doesn't make sense.
No one organization should take on this many roles / domains.
No one organization should take on this many roles / domains.
Is Starfleet a military organization?
- Thread starter Commander Troi
- Start date
But it does. Starfleet is the shape of water.
There were distinctions between officers and enlisted personnel (TOS had Yeoman Rand. Later on, TNG and DS9 had Chief O'Brien.)
Star Trek: Enterprise had the MACO's (Military Assault Command Operations)
Star Trek: Discovery had Section 31 as it's own independent intelligence agency.
So there is precendent for more than one Federal Branch of services and not have everything dog piled under the "StarFleet" branding.
The MACOs were pre-Federation.
I agree that there is a small precedent but not enough to establish much beyond fan speculation.
If the question is one of "military deniability," the USCG would seem to have a much stronger case than Starfleet. Starfleet has the equivalent of the carriers and air wings, nuclear submarines, guided missiles and so on, and is organized for and tasked with using them. The Coast Guard doesn't really seem comparable in that respect.
And that is why you can't compare StarFleet to modern day USCG or USN.
It's closer to the Royal Navy during the ages of Sail & Exploration with Horatio HornBlower w/ elements of modern US Navy inserted.
The MACO's on Enterprise NX-01 were pre-Federation.
As for S31 on Discovery being its own independent intelligence agency... perhaps this was the case solely for the 23rd century.
We know Starfleet Intelligence existed as an organisation dating back to the NX-01 era... and S31 was covert branch (much like it was in the 24th century).
After the events with Control and Disco leaving the 23rd century its possible that Starfleet Intelligence once again took the front seat and S31 was pushed into the background (as far as the name goes at least) because it was found that it operates better in the 'shadows' rather than in the open... so the 23rd century could have been S31 experimenting with operating in the open.
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I'm rewatching DS9 The Siege of AR-558 and I'm wondering to myself. Who the hell taught Starfleet personnel and officers battle techniques and strategy? If Starfleet is not a military.
Add to that, Tasha Yar successfully crossed a minefield to rescue a colonist. It's what inspired Picard to make her his head of security on the ENT-D. Wouldn't it be funny if Starfleet Academy offered a course called "How to Cross Hostile Terrain 101"?
Add to that, freshman cadet Picard came in first place on a 40 kilometer (25 miles) marathon at the academy. With how cushy the TNG era was (pre-Borg, pre-Dominion). What are cadets doing 25 mile runs for? Same goes for the regime Janeway had Tuvok put the Maqui through.
Add to that, the Kobayoshi Maru is a stress test all command cadets have to take. A no-win situation to rescue hostages, while under fire from 3 Klingon BOP. Recall the TNG episode "First Contact". Where Picard says, "that disastrous first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war".
The war ended at the end of Star Trek VI, with the Khitomer Accords. But if you were signing up to join Starfleet during Archer's, Burnham's or young Kirk's (prime and Kelvin) eras. Open warfare and combat was an understanding.
To say nothing of the retroactively included war between the Federation and the Cardassians' that occurred pre-TNG. Which Jean-Luc (Starfleet is not a military organization) Picard fought in.
The UFP and Starfleet must have a stellar (wink wink) propaganda machine to recruit applicants. You can almost feel bad for people like Kelvin Scotty, who just wanted to be an explorer. Or the cadet and ensign nobodies who joined Starfleet to study gaseous anomalies.
Add to that, Tasha Yar successfully crossed a minefield to rescue a colonist. It's what inspired Picard to make her his head of security on the ENT-D. Wouldn't it be funny if Starfleet Academy offered a course called "How to Cross Hostile Terrain 101"?
Add to that, freshman cadet Picard came in first place on a 40 kilometer (25 miles) marathon at the academy. With how cushy the TNG era was (pre-Borg, pre-Dominion). What are cadets doing 25 mile runs for? Same goes for the regime Janeway had Tuvok put the Maqui through.
Add to that, the Kobayoshi Maru is a stress test all command cadets have to take. A no-win situation to rescue hostages, while under fire from 3 Klingon BOP. Recall the TNG episode "First Contact". Where Picard says, "that disastrous first contact with the Klingons led to decades of war".
The war ended at the end of Star Trek VI, with the Khitomer Accords. But if you were signing up to join Starfleet during Archer's, Burnham's or young Kirk's (prime and Kelvin) eras. Open warfare and combat was an understanding.
To say nothing of the retroactively included war between the Federation and the Cardassians' that occurred pre-TNG. Which Jean-Luc (Starfleet is not a military organization) Picard fought in.
The UFP and Starfleet must have a stellar (wink wink) propaganda machine to recruit applicants. You can almost feel bad for people like Kelvin Scotty, who just wanted to be an explorer. Or the cadet and ensign nobodies who joined Starfleet to study gaseous anomalies.
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Was Riker playing Lord Flashheart?They really leaned into the Royal Navy in Generations:
Which is absolute nonsense. There's no way in hell human children's brains are sufficiently well-developed to learn these topics. That's not a matter of better education -- it's physically impossible for a human brain to function that way at that age. We should absolutely ignore that detail.
Sure. And that's the sort of thing that can result from a change in operational ethos. Being a military does not require aggression -- an ethos based upon a genuine desire for peaceful resolution of conflicts can encourage a military vessel to avoid being overly-aggressive. In fact, the TNG novel The Buried Age by Christopher L. Bennett establishes that in courts-martial, Starfleet captains can be charged with the use of excessive force in combat in a court-martial.
Because the question is not, "Is Starfleet an X?," but, rather, "Is Starfleet a military?" If someone were to make a post asserting, "Starfleet can't be the primary exploratory service of the Federation because it's clearly used to fight the Federation's wars!," then the response would be, "An exploratory service can also be a military."
Starfleet's role as a military does not "override" its role as the Federation's exploratory service, nor its role as a scientific research agency, nor its role in providing colony support services, nor its role in regulating space traffic, nor its role in providing some diplomatic services. But, it is also a military, and those other roles do not negate that, just like its military role does not negate those other roles.
No it doesn't. In fact, Starfleet seems to follow contemporary military law quite closely. Starfleet has its own legal system and possesses the authority to compel its officers and crew to obey its orders on pain of being charged with violation of Starfleet law, tried in a Starfleet court, and imprisoned in a Starfleet stockade. This is something only a military can do.
Again: It is literally called a court-martial. It's not a court-martial if you're not a military.
It is true that this is a departure from modern military practices, but nothing about the definition of a military precludes this practice. Also, while modern navies do not allow families aboard their ships, families do often live on or near military bases throughout the world, including bases where they might be in danger if hostilities were to break out.
Of course!
Sure, but having other facets is not precluded by the legal definition of a military.
I sympathize with this hesitation, but that ship sailed in TOS Season One, where officers were court-martialed ("Court-Marital"), Starfleet was ordered to fight a war with the Klingons ("Errand of Mercy"), and the entire setup was modeled after Horatio Hornblower. Like it or not, Star Trek has always been a fantasy about a morally righteous version of space colonialism, complete with an outer space version of the Royal Navy.
1) But Starfleet is given primary responsibility for Federation defense. They plan for that mission and have all the tools required for that mission. In actual war-fighting, Starfleet does not become an adjunct of a larger organization.
2) Be that as it may, the United States Coast Guard is still a military organization by law. Legal status is not dictated by operational ethos.
I'd agree with the Royal Navy but I'd put the time frame later, say 1850-1905. There was a much bigger peacetime fleet, more dominions and colonies to patrol, more ocean trade to protect or assist, more oceanography and mapping, more diplomatic commitments.
Something I found very interesting was a list of requests for Royal Navy assistance in the book Send A Gunboat by Antony Preston and John Major, 1967. An except for 1861 below.
Date: 1 Jan 1861
From: Governor of Mauritius via Colonial Office
Request: For a warship to visit the distant dependencies of the Mauritius Government, and for the commanding officer to report on their condition.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 16 Jan 1861
From: Governor of the Bahamas via CinC North America and West Indies station
Request: Naval cooperation with local authorities in endeavoring to put an end to collusive wrecking.
Result: CinC ordered to to occasionally send light-draft vessels to monitor situation.
Date: 23 Jan 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Protection of British consul at Lagos against threat of attack by king of Dahomey.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 31 Jan 1861
From: Messrs Coward & Co, merchants, via Foreign Office
Request: Protection for British subjects and property in the Isthmus of Panama, in consequence of disturbances in New Grenada.
Result: Vessels so ordered.
Date: 11 Feb 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Two frigates at Gibraltar to prevent seizure of vessels by Spanish revenue marine in British waters.
Result: Frigates so ordered.
Date: 16 Feb 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: A ship-of-the-line to be stationed at Naples or Palermo.
Result: CinC Mediterranean so ordered.
Date: 26 Feb 1861
From: British merchants via CinC Mediterranean.
Request: Protection for British property at Messina.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 16 Mar 1861
From: Trustees of the British Museum
Request: For a vessel to be sent to Mersa Louza, Cyrene (Libya), to assist in anitquities research.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 23 Mar 1861
From: Colonial Office
Request: Naval assistance in operations against King Badiboo on the West Coast of Africa.
Result: Commodore on West Coast of Africa so ordered.
Date: 2 Apr 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Protection for consul and British subjects in Japan; presence of CinC in person requested.
Result: CinC so ordered.
Date: 9 Apr 1861
From: British Consulate at Zanzibar via CinC East Indies.
Request: Extension of HMS Lyra on station for protection against slave traders.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 22 May 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: A vessel for protection from native people in the Brass River area (Niger Delta).
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 29 May 1861
From: Governor of Singapore
Request: A warship to accompany the governor on a mission to mediate between chiefs on the Malay coast.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 6 Jun 1861
From: Messrs Hunt & Henley, merchants, London
Request: A warship to cruise the Labrador coast to maintain order during the fishing season.
Result: CinC North America and West Indies station instructed to give orders to vessels accordingly.
Date: 6 Jun 1861
From: Colonial Office
Request: A vessel to protect British territory from native people in the Yucatan region.
Result: CinC North America and West Indies station instructed to give all possible assistance.
Date: 1 Jul 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: A naval force to prevent illegal seizure of British merchants’ property by insurgents in New Grenada.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 28 Aug 1861
From: Governor of Newfoundland via CinC NAWI
Request: A warship to be stationed on the coast of Newfoundland to preserve peace during election-related violence.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: Sep 1861
From: British Consul at Fiji, via senior naval officer
Request: Protection of British interests from native people in Viti Leva area.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 13 Oct 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Two gunboats to be sent to Zanzibar to suppress slave trade.
Result: Station commander ordered to send vessels as their other duties allow.
Date: 22 Oct 1861
From: Messrs Tobin, merchants, Liverpool
Request: Protection for British trading vessels on the Congo.
Result: Commodore on the West Coast of Africa so ordered.
Date: 6 Dec 1861
From: Messrs Gibbs, Bright & Sons, merchants, Liverpool
Request: Protection of British homeward trade from Australia in view of tensions with the US.
Result: Commodore on the Australian station ordered to provide such support as his force allows.
From: Governor of Mauritius via Colonial Office
Request: For a warship to visit the distant dependencies of the Mauritius Government, and for the commanding officer to report on their condition.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 16 Jan 1861
From: Governor of the Bahamas via CinC North America and West Indies station
Request: Naval cooperation with local authorities in endeavoring to put an end to collusive wrecking.
Result: CinC ordered to to occasionally send light-draft vessels to monitor situation.
Date: 23 Jan 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Protection of British consul at Lagos against threat of attack by king of Dahomey.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 31 Jan 1861
From: Messrs Coward & Co, merchants, via Foreign Office
Request: Protection for British subjects and property in the Isthmus of Panama, in consequence of disturbances in New Grenada.
Result: Vessels so ordered.
Date: 11 Feb 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Two frigates at Gibraltar to prevent seizure of vessels by Spanish revenue marine in British waters.
Result: Frigates so ordered.
Date: 16 Feb 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: A ship-of-the-line to be stationed at Naples or Palermo.
Result: CinC Mediterranean so ordered.
Date: 26 Feb 1861
From: British merchants via CinC Mediterranean.
Request: Protection for British property at Messina.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 16 Mar 1861
From: Trustees of the British Museum
Request: For a vessel to be sent to Mersa Louza, Cyrene (Libya), to assist in anitquities research.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 23 Mar 1861
From: Colonial Office
Request: Naval assistance in operations against King Badiboo on the West Coast of Africa.
Result: Commodore on West Coast of Africa so ordered.
Date: 2 Apr 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Protection for consul and British subjects in Japan; presence of CinC in person requested.
Result: CinC so ordered.
Date: 9 Apr 1861
From: British Consulate at Zanzibar via CinC East Indies.
Request: Extension of HMS Lyra on station for protection against slave traders.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 22 May 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: A vessel for protection from native people in the Brass River area (Niger Delta).
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 29 May 1861
From: Governor of Singapore
Request: A warship to accompany the governor on a mission to mediate between chiefs on the Malay coast.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 6 Jun 1861
From: Messrs Hunt & Henley, merchants, London
Request: A warship to cruise the Labrador coast to maintain order during the fishing season.
Result: CinC North America and West Indies station instructed to give orders to vessels accordingly.
Date: 6 Jun 1861
From: Colonial Office
Request: A vessel to protect British territory from native people in the Yucatan region.
Result: CinC North America and West Indies station instructed to give all possible assistance.
Date: 1 Jul 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: A naval force to prevent illegal seizure of British merchants’ property by insurgents in New Grenada.
Result: So ordered.
Date: 28 Aug 1861
From: Governor of Newfoundland via CinC NAWI
Request: A warship to be stationed on the coast of Newfoundland to preserve peace during election-related violence.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: Sep 1861
From: British Consul at Fiji, via senior naval officer
Request: Protection of British interests from native people in Viti Leva area.
Result: Vessel so ordered.
Date: 13 Oct 1861
From: Foreign Office
Request: Two gunboats to be sent to Zanzibar to suppress slave trade.
Result: Station commander ordered to send vessels as their other duties allow.
Date: 22 Oct 1861
From: Messrs Tobin, merchants, Liverpool
Request: Protection for British trading vessels on the Congo.
Result: Commodore on the West Coast of Africa so ordered.
Date: 6 Dec 1861
From: Messrs Gibbs, Bright & Sons, merchants, Liverpool
Request: Protection of British homeward trade from Australia in view of tensions with the US.
Result: Commodore on the Australian station ordered to provide such support as his force allows.
Agreed.
Of course!
I believe @Sci has summarized everything we've discussed here beautifully and therefore Wins The Thread.
@Trek the Halls , you are very kind. Thank you.
I feel like these discussions amount to two Romans, having magically gotten a glimpse of the 21st century, arguing over whether Lockheed Martin is part of Caesar’s army. Well, you see, it’s complicated. Technically no, but “Caesar” did pay it 1.7 Trillion Dollars to create his new Air Force. Lockheed is not Lockheed without its military/governmental connection.
Starfleet is a different animal than we, centuries earlier, are used to.
There is no war among humanity. Really think about that. And space is mostly empty. Same thing. In such a world, Starfleet is future NASA having to retool time to time to do defense. There’s no real use of a military among a peaceful people in a mostly empty universe. That’s the real world anyway. Trek tries to have it both ways. Families colonizing the universe, and yet another Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian/Talarian/Gorn/Breen/Tholian/Tzenkethi/Jaradan/Kzinti/Xindi/Sheliak/Orion/Dominion/Borg/Kelvan/Vaadwaar/Hirogen/etc threat whenever a writer decides an episode needs a cheap fix of space-threat! Heck, if space is that dangerous, it’s wonder we don’t reorganize the Federation into the First Terran Empire!
So, you have to allow for the fun Flash Gordon/Horatio Hornblower elements of the franchise, but also for the part that makes it closer to reality/likely/interesting.
Starfleet is a different animal than we, centuries earlier, are used to.
There is no war among humanity. Really think about that. And space is mostly empty. Same thing. In such a world, Starfleet is future NASA having to retool time to time to do defense. There’s no real use of a military among a peaceful people in a mostly empty universe. That’s the real world anyway. Trek tries to have it both ways. Families colonizing the universe, and yet another Klingon/Romulan/Cardassian/Talarian/Gorn/Breen/Tholian/Tzenkethi/Jaradan/Kzinti/Xindi/Sheliak/Orion/Dominion/Borg/Kelvan/Vaadwaar/Hirogen/etc threat whenever a writer decides an episode needs a cheap fix of space-threat! Heck, if space is that dangerous, it’s wonder we don’t reorganize the Federation into the First Terran Empire!
So, you have to allow for the fun Flash Gordon/Horatio Hornblower elements of the franchise, but also for the part that makes it closer to reality/likely/interesting.
That's so wrong. The Romans understood the concept of buying weapons for their military very well. Government price fixing is believed by Luttwak to be one of the reasons why, one-to-one, Roman weapons were often inferior to their enemies' [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_ancient_Rome#Equipment].
Okay, thanks. Let’s go further back to understand the point I’m making so as not to get stuck on the minutia.
Yep. It's a tv show, so it tries to have it all, depending on the needs of the plot. "No, we're not a military, we're about peaceful exploration." AND "We need some drama, so we need enemies. And maybe a war to shake things up." So here we fans sit, trying to make a dodecahedron fit in a square hole.
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