Is Starfleet a military organization?

[fireproof78]

but that's of course - if the guys in stargate bought too many farms the plot goes kaboom (being secret and all that) - not even major davis* can hush up a dead division

---

* that dude should have been promoted

He was.

 

[oberth]

He was.

i just binged it - he wore gold leaves all the time. he was promoted later but that's in sga after the end of sg1

https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Davis

 

[fireproof78]

i just binged it - he wore gold leaves all the time. he was promoted later but that's in sga after the end of sg1

https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Davis

Was not aware we were only talkling about SG:1.

 

[oberth]

Was not aware we were only talkling about SG:1.

sga would give you a bunch of dead marines so we are not talking that

... nah we're not talking it because the atlantis mission does not belong to sgc and ...

yep, but sgc is a lot better at getting their personnel back in one piece

 

[fireproof78]

sga would give you a bunch of dead marines so we are not talking that

... nah we're not talking it because the atlantis mission does not belong to sgc and ...

Ah.

 

[oberth]

Ah.

i also never understood why they didn't dig up a couple of m551s to form sgh(eavy) - even an m1 fits through the gate but there might be a problem getting them into that mountain

 

[thribs]

i also never understood why they didn't dig up a couple of m551s to form sgh(eavy) - even an m1 fits through the gate but there might be a problem getting them into that mountain

You forget. The roof opens up.
Puddle Jumpers are probably more deadlier anyway

 

[oberth]

You forget. The roof opens up.
Puddle Jumpers are probably more deadlier anyway

they don't have any for a long time - the m1 might be a weight problem and while they can easily built a heavier ramp in the sgc that might be a problem on the other side. is there a chopper that can lift an m1 atop cheyenne mountain?

 

[thribs]

They could just beam it in

 

[oberth]

They could just beam it in

since which season?

... and no there is no chopper that can lift an m1 but there is more than one to lift an m551

 

[thribs]

What about a chopper powered by naquadah?

 

[oberth]

What about a chopper powered by naquadah?

the mechanics of that rotary engine can take that? - it also needs the naquadah generator in service earlier

 

[GNDN18]

And we have, indeed, seen canonically that Starfleet has the legal authority to arrest its members, charge them with disobedience, try them in Starfleet courts, and imprison them in Starfleet prisons.

And even execute them. Mendez says as much: “And to do so [violate General Order 7] is the only death penalty left on our books.” Starfleet’s books, not the Federation writ large. Other planets have capital punishment; Starfleet does, too, but for only one specific offense.

 

[The Wormhole]

uss constalation in the doomesday machine has more casulties than the whole of scg. there's also a vulcan crewed conny (can't remember the episode atm) - the korolev is a russian ship and dead jaffa don't count

There's also the Prometheus which was an American ship. There've been entire SG teams lost in various episodes, which the writers/producers like to refer to as the Redshirt Teams in DVD commentaries.

 

[oberth]

There's also the Prometheus which was an American ship. There've been entire SG teams lost in various episodes, which the writers/producers like to refer to as the Redshirt Teams in DVD commentaries.

so what - her crew compliment is 115+ of which 75 were beamed to tegalus' surface before she blew up

• uss prometheus
  
• battle of tegalus

an sg team are four personnel, so they can lose about 80 of them and the prometheus just to get even with intrepid

 

[The Wormhole]

I think there was also an off-world base that was destroyed with a majority of its personnel. Gamma Site, I believe.

 

[oberth]

I think there was also an off-world base that was destroyed with a majority of its personnel. Gamma Site, I believe.

yep as much casulties as the battle of cardassia prime

/sarcasm

 

[NCC-73515]

They're still Air Force/Navy officers, on detached duty to NASA/ESA/CSA.

Exactly.

Clearly not enough, given how many regularly get killed on the average away team. Okay, sarcasm aside, all of the away teams we've seen in Disco, at least in the first two seasons had combat gear and battle uniforms,

Every single time we see Starfleet Security officers on an away team/boarding party/landing party pull out a phaser, it's the same thing.

And in TOS, TAS, TNG, DS9 (before the war), VOY, and ENT? They don't even always take hand phasers with them. Are hand phasers military grade weapons of war?

Legally, it would be a dual-hatted military and emergency services/law enforcement organization as the USCG already is because those are the components that require a legal mandate to operate.

No, they aren't legally, because they have powers and authorities that civilians do not.

However, for the same reason most though not all police forces also aren't military because they lack the additional power and authorities that militaries do (i.e. to fight in wars (for example this is why Germany's GS9 isn't military, but the USCG is)).

Starfleet has both sets of powers and authorities and is therefore legally a military according to the modern definition.

We don't know anything about the legal status of anything (except Data? XD) in the Trek future.
What is that modern definition, and how did it change?

In US law, police are usually defined as "civilian law enforcement" to distinguish themselves from military law enforcement (MPs and such). I imagine private security forces would be the same. Being "armed" in the United States, and many other countries, doesn't really carry the connotation of militarization.

Police often don't consider themselves civilians, in nomenclature and internal policy, but that appears to conflict with what they are, legally. There's also the matter of several police forces, such as the NYPD recently, fortifying their civilian status in press releases and statements in the wake of those who consider them to have militarized.

It's all a matter of semantics. What words mean. And that's the crux of 90% of all arguments. You consider the police military, but the NYPD Commissioner doesn't. I consider Starfleet to be military, but Starfleet Captain Archer doesn't. Who's right, who's wrong? All of us? None of us? It all depends on who's definition we're using. I suspect we're using different ones.

Exactly. That's why definitions would matter and help solve this to some degree.

I'm not sure what you mean by "just," but it would be a military, yes. Because, once again, if it is the agency of the state that is legally charged with defending the state in times of war or violent conflict, then it is the military. It may also have co-equal missions, but having that one mission of state defense makes it the military.

Just in the sense that if something is A, B, C, D, and E, would it then be called only E. In this case, for example, SF is a military in times of war, but also many other things at the same time, and only those other things in times of peace.

No, it literally does. See, having a court-martial means that there's a separate set of laws that apply to members of the military, giving the military the right to literally arrest, charge, try, and imprison you if you are a member who disobeys orders. That is incredibly important. If I work at Subway and I disobey my manager's orders, Subway does not have the legal authority to arrest me, charge me with disobeying an order, try me in an internal Subway court, and then imprison me at a Subway prison. If you work as a mid-level software developer at Google, and you disobey your boss, Google doesn't get to arrest you, charge you with disobeying an order, try you in an internal Google court, and imprison you in a Google prison.

That is absolutely one of the most important legal distinctions between a military and a non-military. Civilian employers do not have the right to imprison their employees for disobedience. The military does.

And we have, indeed, seen canonically that Starfleet has the legal authority to arrest its members, charge them with disobedience, try them in Starfleet courts, and imprison them in Starfleet prisons.

The catholic church at least has its internal prosecution, trial, punishment rights. Don't know about other churches, but I think there are hearings and disciplinary measures in many kinds of companies or organizations.

 

[fireproof78]

Starfleet serves that role as a defense arm even in times of peace, as a demonstration of power, or force projection in an area. So, even with multiple goals, Starfleet still acts in a defensive, military capacity. That is has other missions does not take away from that military role.

 

[oberth]

The catholic church at least has its internal prosecution, trial, punishment rights. Don't know about other churches, but I think there are hearings and disciplinary measures in many kinds of companies or organizations.

can they hang you for treason?