Is Starfleet a military or not?

[Christopher]

Did we ever see a single Alien Admiral in TOS? Or any Alien Captains? Hell, aside from Spock I'm hard pressed to remember any Non-Human Starfleet Officers.

TAS had Arex and M'Ress, and ST:TMP had Ilia and a bunch of alien crewmembers in the background.

But it's true that the shows have done a poor job depicting diversity in Starfleet. The only alien admirals we've ever seen in canonical Trek are three or four Vulcans and one Bolian, all but one of whom appeared in DS9. And the one Vulcan admiral we saw in TNG (in "Conspiracy") was possessed by an alien bug thingie and died.

Uhh, what? Japan is certainly part of Asia, so a Japanese given name and a Filipino-ish surname suggests a mixed Asian ancestry, exactly as intended.

Except Hikaru isn't a "pan Asian" name, it's specifically Japanese. There are names that are pan Asian, Ming would be one example, it is found in many Asian counties, Hikaru isn't.

You're taking "pan-Asian" too literally. It's not that every single thing about him had to be generically Asian, just that he came from a mixed background. Yes, Hikaru is a Japanese name, but Sulu very much isn't. The name as a whole is mixed, and that's the point.

The best reference source for what the creators intended is usually The Making of Star Trek, which was published during the show's run and was written by a journalist with extensive access to the production. It says of Sulu (on p. 247), "Although of mixed Oriental and Filipino background, Sulu's cultural heritage is mainly Japanese." Certainly we saw this in "Shore Leave," where he conjured up a samurai (and seemed oddly frightened by it). So it's not that there's anything wrong with including Japanese elements in his background, it's just that he wasn't meant to be purely Japanese, as is evident from his surname.

George Takei and Vonda McIntyre are not TPTB, it was Nicholas Meyer's decision that enter the name into official canon, and Meyer definitely is part of "TPTB."

I get sick of people using "TPTB" at all. It's an invocation of some faceless amalgamated "Them" on whom all complaints can be blamed. It's essentially a stereotype, substituting a generic faceless foe for individual human beings, and that makes it an intrinsic fallacy of thought. We should attribute decisions to specific individuals and understand their specific motives. Trying to avoid contemplating details and reduce everything to simplistic buzzwords is intellectually lazy and inimical to truth.

Anyway, "The Powers That Be" are supposed to be the entrenched authorities who run the whole show. Nicholas Meyer was a director on only two movies and a screenwriter on three, with no direct influence beyond that.

And there is no "entering into official canon." Canon is a term coined by fans and critics to describe the original work as distinct from tie-ins and fan fiction. There is no "office" that "enters" things into any kind of formal record -- there are just people making movies and TV shows. They never think of them as "canon," they just think of them as the current job they're doing. Takei suggested using the name as a nod to Vonda McIntyre (who I believe was with him on the set that day), Meyer shrugged and said "Why not," and that's all. It was an offhand improvisation. Calling that "entering into official canon" is needlessly pretentious.

 

[The Wormhole]

And isn't it inferred that certain Federation member planets, such as Vulcan, operate their own fleets as well?

The novels do suggest that, but on screen, there's very little indication that's the case. The closest we ever get is TNG's Gambit in which we learn Vulcan has its own intelligence agency, the V'Shar.

On DS9 it was made clear that when Bajor joined the Federation, the Bajoran Militia would be "absorbed" into Starfleet. Also, Betazed fell to the Dominion due to Starfleet's inaction.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

And isn't it inferred that certain Federation member planets, such as Vulcan, operate their own fleets as well?

Yes, this, at least, is true. In TNG's "Unification I", the T'Pau is stated in dialog to have a Vulcan registry.

So, indeed, it would appear that Starfleet is mostly a "homo-sapiens only club".

To this, though, I would say not.

 

[Christopher]

And isn't it inferred that certain Federation member planets, such as Vulcan, operate their own fleets as well?

The novels do suggest that, but on screen, there's very little indication that's the case. The closest we ever get is TNG's Gambit in which we learn Vulcan has its own intelligence agency, the V'Shar.

On DS9 it was made clear that when Bajor joined the Federation, the Bajoran Militia would be "absorbed" into Starfleet. Also, Betazed fell to the Dominion due to Starfleet's inaction.

Could it be that these individual planetary fleets are not military? Or maybe they're the equivalent of state police/highway patrol?

 

[137th Gebirg]

Make Spock a Black Dude and change all of McCoy's "Green Blooded Bastard" stuff to "Black Skinned Nigger Bastard!" stuff and tell me it's not racist.

Such exchanges between two close friends who consider themselves brothers, and yet are of different ethnic groups, are not unheard of. And neither individual takes offense. An outsider would consider it shocking and racist, yes. Those two brothers, however, would not. It's just a part of that understanding between them.

Context is everything.

Sulu was from American, current boundaries.

Oh, that's right! San Francisco ("I grew up here")

Sulu (TVH): "San Francisco. I was born there.

<Sigh> Quite right. I really do hate getting old. 15-20 years ago, I would have remembered that. My memory is definitely turning to shit.

But it's true that the shows have done a poor job depicting diversity in Starfleet.

Now coming to think of it, this might have actually been canonically intentional. We know from "Immunity Syndrome" that the Intrepid was crewed entirely by Vulcans. In the fan-film "Prelude to Axanar", Kharn mentions that they never knew who they were fighting, as one ship's crew would be human, another Andorian or Vulcan. Granted, the latter is non-canon, but it could be the reason why we never saw other races in TOS much, because there was potentially forced (or voluntary) segregation in Starfleet between races and crews. Kirk's Enterprise just happened to be largely human and that's all we were ever allowed to see. Spock was there because he was half-human, and perhaps a Starfleet "experiment" to try out mixed-crew integration by the mid-late 23rd century. They probably speculated that Spock's human ancestry would allow him to "fit in" to an all-human crew more effectively than a "pure blood", and yet give them an indication of how someone who is decidedly not entirely human would work with an all-human crew. This segregation might have started out because of the generally bad blood between the founding members of the Federation in the beginning, having found that crews work better when they're all of the same species. Full integration of crews might not have happened until the 24th century. This has never been spoken about canonically, but I'm almost positive that would be the in-universe reasoning, explaining all of it.

 

[Christopher]

^Except, again, we saw an integrated Enterprise crew in TMP. It's just that later productions didn't have the budget or the will to follow that precedent.

Also, I misspoke earlier. In The Voyage Home, we saw two Andorians and two Caitians of flag rank in the council chamber scenes, so they can be added to the short list of nonhuman admirals in canon.

 

[Nero's Shadow]

Galaxy peace keeping force similar to NATO Starfleet I'm assuming has a Multi role purpose Science Defence Exploration Rescue and Emergency missions .

I'm sure if you look at the TOS tech manual there's a lot of info about Starfleet and its roles.??

 

[Anwar]

Such exchanges between two close friends who consider themselves brothers, and yet are of different ethnic groups, are not unheard of. And neither individual takes offense. An outsider would consider it shocking and racist, yes. Those two brothers, however, would not. It's just a part of that understanding between them.

What, to take racist swipes at one another and insult one anothers cultures? What kind of understanding is that?

And naturally, Kirk was fine letting them do this but gets hypocritically angry if anyone else gets in on it (Stiles).

And TOS apparently also thought it was fine having T'Pau be racist and xenophobic too despite being such a being of "logic".

 

[T'Girl]

Galaxy peace keeping force similar to NATO Starfleet I'm assuming has a Multi role purpose Science Defence Exploration Rescue and Emergency missions.

Starfleet is often depicted as the Federation's swiss army knife.[/quote]

I'm sure if you look at the TOS tech manual there's a lot of info about Starfleet and its roles.??

Less than you might think, the FJ tech manual, in comparison to some later manuals, is actually somewhat thin on material.

 

[137th Gebirg]

Such exchanges between two close friends who consider themselves brothers, and yet are of different ethnic groups, are not unheard of. And neither individual takes offense. An outsider would consider it shocking and racist, yes. Those two brothers, however, would not. It's just a part of that understanding between them.

What, to take racist swipes at one another and insult one anothers cultures? What kind of understanding is that?

One that you clearly do not and probably shouldn't try to.

I used to work with many Indians years ago (from India, not Native Americans), and I would always joke with them about eating chilled monkey brains and saying "Kali ma shakti de" (from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom - a movie that was amusingly banned in India for the same reason), and they would always call me a skirt-wearing sheep-shagging imperialist, among other things (because of my Scottish background and the Scot's involvement in the Black-and-Tan regiments). The Chinese guy always called me a bourgeois dog and I always asked him how his dog tasted for dinner last night. Did any of us take offense at each others snipes? No. It was all in good fun and it built a bond of brotherhood that made us a strong engineering force in our organization that everyone respected (and some feared). That is, until we were laid off along with half the company back in 2003. It was probably the best job I ever had in my entire 22-year-long career (to-date) and I learned much and more about their cultures than I ever would have anywhere else. It was a great learning experience. They would introduce me to their cuisines and ordered stuff not on the menu for round-eyes like me, and I would take them to Irish pubs and got them shit-faced drunk and teach them Irish drinking songs. They loved Whiskey in the Jar. Absolutely one of the best times of our lives.

I was the "token white boy", while the rest were east-Asians and Indians. Did they see me as an outsider or a racist? Did I them? Did they each other? (and Chinese and Indians haven't generally been very friendly across the water right now) Never once. It took time to develop the relationship to that level but, in the end, we were a band of brothers and we all had strong IT skills that complemented and supplemented each other's - such relationships exist strongly in the military as well - until you experience that for yourself, you will never understand and shouldn't presume to judge based on your own apparently limited and thin-skinned world view.

 

[Christopher]

And TOS apparently also thought it was fine having T'Pau be racist and xenophobic too despite being such a being of "logic".

Come on. Depicting a behavior is hardly the same as endorsing it. Vulcans have often been portrayed as having personal foibles and falling short of their logical ideals. Good grief, the whole plot of "Amok Time" is about revealing the fierce emotions and jealously guarded traditions that underlie the veneer of Vulcan logic.

 

[Silvercrest]

I do think the way people tend to look at the issue of whether Starfleet is a military or not has been clouded by the rhetoric over the years (coming from Gene R himself, for the most part). Gene tended to talk about it in very black and white terms

Gene threw out so much obvious crap over the years that you'd think he was doing it just to flip The Great Bird at people-- except he was so sincere about it.

 

[137th Gebirg]

And TOS apparently also thought it was fine having T'Pau be racist and xenophobic too despite being such a being of "logic".

Come on. Depicting a behavior is hardly the same as endorsing it. Vulcans have often been portrayed as having personal foibles and falling short of their logical ideals. Good grief, the whole plot of "Amok Time" is about revealing the fierce emotions and jealously guarded traditions that underlie the veneer of Vulcan logic.

Agreed. This is starting to remind me of the "Queen Bitch Whore" whine-fest that derailed the Axanar thread.

 

[BillJ]

Which again, takes the side that the Federation was a Human Empire and Starfleet simply a bland generic space Navy.

Star Trek is not a history of the future. It is a TV show made in the 1960's, whose sole purpose was to entertain people enough to keep them around to watch the commercials.

Judging it beyond those parameters is insane.

 

[Misfit Toy]

Let's stay on topic, everyone.

Is Starfleet a military or not?
Yes. Also, no.

 

[JeffinOakland]

Yes. It's a quasi-military that doesn't function exactly like any Earth military does or did because it isn't an earth military. Its an outer space, multi-species military who's primary stated goals are exploration and ambassadorship. Apples and oranges.

 

[alpha_leonis]

A friend of mine, of the conservative-Libertarian persuasion, put it the best way, I think (at least in terms of its humor potential): StarFleet is what the US Navy would look like if it were run by Communists.

 

[JeffinOakland]

A friend of mine, of the conservative-Libertarian persuasion, put it the best way, I think (at least in terms of its humor potential): StarFleet is what the US Navy would look like if it were run by Communists.

How is it that self-described conservatives and libertarians are always such "experts" on far left ideologies?

 

[fireproof78]

^Except, again, we saw an integrated Enterprise crew in TMP. It's just that later productions didn't have the budget or the will to follow that precedent.

Also, I misspoke earlier. In The Voyage Home, we saw two Andorians and two Caitians of flag rank in the council chamber scenes, so they can be added to the short list of nonhuman admirals in canon.

I would like to add that there was a Captain Satelk, who was a captain, and regarded enough to preside over an inquiry at Starfleet Academy in the episode "The First Duty." Not a flag officer, but not a nobody either

As to the topic of Starfleet as a military organization, I think Christopher has given a pretty good answer. The idea of a military is in its structure, its traditions, power and abilities. Just because it can wage war, does not mean that is its primary purpose or the first course of action. The different departments of Starfleet provide multiple courses of action, and options abilities, not just fighting.

I referred to Space Cadet earlier, and wish I still had my copy of that book so I could find the appropriate quote. The ideals of the Solar Patrol of the Federation in that book are ones of nobility and virtue, as much about maintaining the peace as they are controlling the nuclear stockpile. The idea that they CAN nuke a city from orbit is not the first part of their duty.

As for the Starfleet Marines, while the idea is appealing and makes a certain kind of sense, from a ground forces perspective, it is not something that I think is required for Starfleet to function, as Starfleet Security functions in the same role as original wet naval Marines, as ship security. Actually, American Marines will still serve as security for American naval ships and bases.

As much I like Marines, and have written several rpg characters as Marines, they don't have to be present in order to make Starfleet work as an organization.

 

[fireproof78]

A friend of mine, of the conservative-Libertarian persuasion, put it the best way, I think (at least in terms of its humor potential): StarFleet is what the US Navy would look like if it were run by Communists.

How is it that self-described conservatives and libertarians are always such "experts" on far left ideologies?

The same way that far left persuaded people are experts on right wing beliefs and policies. We are all experts of opinions, especially those that are opposite of our own beliefs, right?

In all seriousness, it sometimes is beneficial to be an outsider looking in on an ideology or belief system just to give a different perspective. You might miss some essential details that would assist in clarifying every aspect of the ideology, but you also can see inconsistencies a little bit more easily, and offer questions that insiders might not ask.