Is Starfleet a military or not?

[Christopher]

Sulu was from Japan...

Actually, even aside from his San Francisco origin established in the fourth movie, Sulu was never intended to be specifically Japanese. "Sulu" isn't even a Japanese name; it's the name of a sea in the Philippines. Sulu was intended to be a "pan-Asian" character of mixed ancestry and cultural heritage. The only reason we've tended to assume he was Japanese is because George Takei is Japanese-American and we mistook the actor's background for the character's. Odd that we'd do that for Sulu and not for any of the others (the only TOS lead character who's from the same place as his portrayer is McCoy), but then, I guess it's because the show never specified an actual origin, not until the movie era.

 

[Lance]

In the sixteeth, seventeeth and eighteenth centuries, so much of the world was still being explored and charted. What we would now call scientists (people like Botanists) were more than just token members of a ship's compliment, they were a part of her status: yes, these navies had a primary mission of declaring and supporting the territorial initiatives of the governments which sent them, but they also had a secondary mission which was basically to fill in all those areas on a map that were empty. Of course, *today's* military doesn't have that. It isn't concerned with that, because we already know it all. But in the old days, discovering new land masses and cataloguing the bizarre and unusual plant and animal life there was very much a part and parcel of the service. It didn't make them any less "military", it just meant they had a much broader mission statement than today's military.

And that's the military that, I believe, Starfleet is. It bears little core resemblence to today's military, but it's fundamentally closer to the days of Columbus or Cook, when military powers sought to do more than simply change the boundries on a map: they sought to learn more about the world, a vast, marvelous world of which we still knew surprisingly little.

So yes, Starfleet *is* a military. But that doesn't mean they're a military in the 20th/21st century sense of the term. They're explorers as well as soldiers.

Yes. Exactly. The Federation is like 18th- and 19th-century England, a civilization in which discovery and science are embraced with a passion and explorers are national heroes.

(Columbus is a bad example, though; his interests were strictly commercial, and he was a terrible explorer because he sailed on a false assumption, survived only by stumbling onto a land mass he didn't expect to find, and never even correctly identified what it was he'd discovered -- yet nonetheless happily enslaved and murdered the people he found there.)

I realized Columbus was a bad example after I said it. But the point I was making definitely stands -- whereas most people have a habit of looking at a "military" in terms of what it's offensive and defensive priorities are, as in the modern armed forces, the reality is that historically, a military can have all sorts of broadly ranging powers and responsibilities that go beyond merely establishing and controlling territorial imperatives. Starfleet was as much an offensive and defensive force as any modern military, for sure we saw evidence of that even in The Next Generation, it definitely did handle those sorts of missions, but the presence of its scientific and exploratory achievements certainly did not make it any less military. If anything, it makes perfect sense to me that once we go out to explore the 'new frontier' of space, then the military's mission statement could once again broaden itself to include more scientific endeavours, as well as other roles. As indeed some of our current space programs have already done.

Realistically, just like the Navy's of the 1700s and 1800s, Starfleet is a military consisting of many different sorts of people -- soldiers, scientists, explorers -- although the lines between those responsibilities might be shared by many multi-talented individuals rather than people with training only in specific areas, while undoubtedly there are also individuals are specialists in their field. Kirk might be a soldier by breeding or by training alike, but he isn't unaware that his particular skills are not the only ones applicable to Starfleet's assignments. They might be more useful in one engagement than they are in another where a more scientific approach is needed. But it's *all* under the umbrella of a military.

 

[Anwar]

Where are you drawing these conclusions from?

From TOS itself, which made it clear to only show American values in its multi-national crew and nothing else and to focus on "Earth first, all other aliens second" in its designations.

And the words said between them during "Day of the Dove" doesn't count, as they were all under the influence of the negative emotional energy entity.

In Virus Veritas.

If you're talking about McCoy's sniping, that was clearly done from years of friendship, something that many of us have experienced over time (myself included) when working in an environment with people from other creeds who are comfortable enough with each other enough to poke occasional jibes of an ethnic variety and adult/professional enough not to take offense.

Make Spock a Black Dude and change all of McCoy's "Green Blooded Bastard" stuff to "Black Skinned Nigger Bastard!" stuff and tell me it's not racist.

With Kirk being A-Okay allowing this to constantly happen, but hypocritically getting mad if someone else (Stiles) jumps on the bandwagon.

Apart from that, I don't recall any actively negative racial issues on board, explicit or implicit. In fact, the show went out of its way to demonstrate that to be the case.

The Vulcans were racist towards humans as well in TOS.

More on-topic, just as the TOS Federation was really a Benign Terran Empire the TOS Starfleet was just your run-of-the-mill Generic Space Navy out doing exploring for mainly Imperialistic purposes (new military resources, new weapons to be made from ancient alien tech, new allies in wars they'll be fighting, beating their enemies to new areas, etc).

Starting in TNG they decided not to be creatively bankrupt and made the 24th Century NOT a carbon copy of the 20th.

 

[Christopher]

But the point I was making definitely stands -- whereas most people have a habit of looking at a "military" in terms of what it's offensive and defensive priorities are, as in the modern armed forces, the reality is that historically, a military can have all sorts of broadly ranging powers and responsibilities that go beyond merely establishing and controlling territorial imperatives.

And modern militaries often still have such roles, as I've said. A lot of what the US military does today is peacekeeping, humanitarian relief, large-scale engineering, science, diplomacy, etc. Just because it doesn't get covered on the news, that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Where are you drawing these conclusions from?

From TOS itself, which made it clear to only show American values in its multi-national crew and nothing else and to focus on "Earth first, all other aliens second" in its designations.

It was an American show intended for an American audience so of course it's values reflected "American" ones. Which is a different thing than the UFP being an "Human Empire". Humans were used out of financial necessity not in any attempt to send a message.

The reception scene in "Journey To Babel" is probably more representative of what the Federation is than the crew of the Enterprise. We see a wide range of species there. Even the ones in funny clothes and wigs are meant to be non-humans. These are the people who make the serious decisions for the Federation not some cabal of humans.

 

[T'Girl]

Sulu was from American, current boundaries.

Oh, that's right! San Francisco ("I grew up here")

Sulu (TVH): "San Francisco. I was born there.

.. and Uhura from the United Sates of Africa.

While part of her non-canon back story, was this ever once mentioned on the show?

Sulu was intended to be a "pan-Asian"

Which TPTB screwed up by presenting Sulu with a Japanese given name.

From TOS itself, which made it clear to only show American values in its multi-national crew ...

Sulu stated his name in TUC as "Hikaru Sulu" (American style) and not "Sulu Hikaru" (Japanese style).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sulu was intended to be a "pan-Asian"

Which TPTB screwed up by presenting Sulu with a Japanese given name.

How so? His first name is Japanese and his family name isn't. Which implies he's not only Japanese but also of other Asian origins. Being born in Chinatown also implies some non-Japanese ancestry.

 

[Anwar]

It was an American show intended for an American audience so of course it's values reflected "American" ones. Which is a different thing than the UFP being an "Human Empire". Humans were used out of financial necessity not in any attempt to send a message.

Then they shouldn't have bothered giving them a multinational crew to begin with. All it did was send the message that the "silly foreigners" had realized the "error" of their lives and surrendered to American culture in the future. And even then they were subservient to a White American man.

The reception scene in "Journey To Babel" is probably more representative of what the Federation is than the crew of the Enterprise. We see a wide range of species there. Even the ones in funny clothes and wigs are meant to be non-humans. These are the people who make the serious decisions for the Federation not some cabal of humans.

It supports that the Feds are willing to maintain a pretense that they're include their weaker partners in their debates. But the TOS Movies clearly had everything be Human dominated and Human oriented even when not necessary or budget-mandated.

Heck, it's called the "Earth Federation" in one episode.

 

[The Wormhole]

And there was rarely any sense of strong military discipline; Archer called his officers by their first names, and Reed was the only one who really embraced a military way of thinking and acting.

Wasn't that more Archer's preferred approach to command? I remember him talking about having superiors who were more stern and said things like "they're your crew, not your friends" and that he preferred a more relaxed atmosphere. I'm sure even in militaries today, not every commanding officer is a stern by the book soldier stereotype, you got some that are like that and others which have a more relaxed attitude.

 

[Nerys Myk]

It was an American show intended for an American audience so of course it's values reflected "American" ones. Which is a different thing than the UFP being an "Human Empire". Humans were used out of financial necessity not in any attempt to send a message.

Then they shouldn't have bothered giving them a multinational crew to begin with. All it did was send the message that the "silly foreigners" had realized the "error" of their lives and surrendered to American culture in the future. And even then they were subservient to a White American man.

What show did you watch? Scotty, Chekov and to a lesser extent Uhura were all proud of their non-American backgrounds. We also saw people of color in positions of authority in the show.

So show me an example of a character admitting the errors in their own culture and surrendering to American culture? An on going theme of the show is accepting what is different: The Horta, Balok or even finding common ground: The Balance of Terror. So I gain I must ask, what show were you watching?

The reception scene in "Journey To Babel" is probably more representative of what the Federation is than the crew of the Enterprise. We see a wide range of species there. Even the ones in funny clothes and wigs are meant to be non-humans. These are the people who make the serious decisions for the Federation not some cabal of humans.

It supports that the Feds are willing to maintain a pretense that they're include their weaker partners in their debates. But the TOS Movies clearly had everything be Human dominated and Human oriented even when not necessary or budget-mandated.

Heck, it's called the "Earth Federation" in one episode.

How does it support this idea? Show me something in the episode that proves this.

Even the TOS movies had budget limits. Having alien make up that is front and center is a different cost than background aliens. Though in TUC the President of the Federation is a non-human.

Star Trek is a TV show. One that was evolving as it was made. In the beginning the Enterprise was an Earth ship working for the UESPA and Spock was a Vulcanian from the planet Vulcanis who had a human ancestor. One stray piece of dialog proves very little.

 

[Lance]

But the point I was making definitely stands -- whereas most people have a habit of looking at a "military" in terms of what it's offensive and defensive priorities are, as in the modern armed forces, the reality is that historically, a military can have all sorts of broadly ranging powers and responsibilities that go beyond merely establishing and controlling territorial imperatives.

And modern militaries often still have such roles, as I've said. A lot of what the US military does today is peacekeeping, humanitarian relief, large-scale engineering, science, diplomacy, etc. Just because it doesn't get covered on the news, that doesn't mean it isn't happening.

Oh, definitely, I am in full agreement.

I do think the way people tend to look at the issue of whether Starfleet is a military or not has been clouded by the rhetoric over the years (coming from Gene R himself, for the most part). Gene tended to talk about it in very black and white terms -- the alleged "militarism" of the TOS movies -- when in reality (and I think the poll result almost backs this up ) it's perfectly clear to most of us that Starfleet was, is and remains a military, no matter what it's stance actually is on conflict with other galactic powers. It exists to be the Federation's representatives "out there" on the front line, no matter whether it be in war or in peace. To my mind, that much is indisputable. A military is a military, no matter what.

And by any reasonable barometer, Starfleet *is* a military.

I just thought of another question though -- Starfleet is simply one arm of the Federation, right? But we never get told what the relevant equivalents of the Romulans and Klingons are, do we? Obviously they've got equivalent fleets, presumably kept at an arm's length from the political powers back on the homeworld just as Starfleet is nominally it's own organization within the greater Federation without actually 'being' the Federation, but whenever we see Klingons or Romulans the ships are simply refered to in much broader terms. And isn't it inferred that certain Federation member planets, such as Vulcan, operate their own fleets as well? So, indeed, it would appear that Starfleet is mostly a "homo-sapiens only club".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ With the Klingons, their military is the Klingon Defense Force. I think the Romulans have the 'Imperial Fleet'.

And Federation member worlds do keep some of their own militaries, but only to deal with local matters. The greater needs are always taken care of by Starfleet.

 

[Christopher]

Sulu was intended to be a "pan-Asian"

Which TPTB screwed up by presenting Sulu with a Japanese given name.

Uhh, what? Japan is certainly part of Asia, so a Japanese given name and a Filipino-ish surname suggests a mixed Asian ancestry, exactly as intended.

Anyway, it was novelist Vonda N. McIntyre who coined the first name Hikaru for Sulu in her 1981 novel The Entropy Effect. Nicholas Meyer incorporated that name into The Undiscovered Country at the suggestion of George Takei. I don't think that qualifies as "TPTB."

 

[Enterprise1701]

^ With the Klingons, their military is the Klingon Defense Force. I think the Romulans have the 'Imperial Fleet'.

And Federation member worlds do keep some of their own militaries, but only to deal with local matters. The greater needs are always taken care of by Starfleet.

I don't think that name has ever been established in canon since Memory Alpha only has an article on the "Romulan military". The current novels mostly agree on "Romulan Imperial Fleet", though.

 

[Anwar]

What show did you watch? Scotty, Chekov and to a lesser extent Uhura were all proud of their non-American backgrounds. We also saw people of color in positions of authority in the show.

Chekov's Russian pride was nothing but the butt of jokes, Scotty's Scottish pride was near-non-existent and Uhura's WAS non-existent.

An on going theme of the show is accepting what is different: The Horta, Balok or even finding common ground: The Balance of Terror.

Which didn't stop them from being racist to the one Alien guy they had around for more than one episode. Presumably, if the Horta stuck around we'd be hearing McCoy say things like "Pay attention you God-Blasted living Lasagna!"

How does it support this idea? Show me something in the episode that proves this.

Did we ever see a single Alien Admiral in TOS? Or any Alien Captains? Hell, aside from Spock I'm hard pressed to remember any Non-Human Starfleet Officers.

Star Trek is a TV show. One that was evolving as it was made. In the beginning the Enterprise was an Earth ship working for the UESPA and Spock was a Vulcanian from the planet Vulcanis who had a human ancestor. One stray piece of dialog proves very little.

Which again, takes the side that the Federation was a Human Empire and Starfleet simply a bland generic space Navy.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Uhura's [pride in her non-American background] WAS non-existent.

Literally nonexistent? That's untrue. Uhura decorated her quarters with specifically African motifs, as shown in "Elaan of Troyius" and "The Tholian Web".

 

[martok2112]

Uhura's [pride in her non-American background] WAS non-existent.

Literally nonexistent? That's untrue. Uhura decorated her quarters with specifically African motifs, as shown in "Elaan of Troyius" and "The Tholian Web".

If anything, I would say it became less apparent during the movies....but she did have some expression of her heritage in TOS.

 

[T'Girl]

Chekov's Russian pride was nothing but the butt of jokes, Scotty's Scottish pride was near-non-existent and Uhura's WAS non-existent.

Scott's official dress uniform incorporated a kilt, we never saw Uhura or Chekov in theirs. All three apparently spoke a native language, we heard Chekov speak Russian in TSFS.

Uhh, what? Japan is certainly part of Asia, so a Japanese given name and a Filipino-ish surname suggests a mixed Asian ancestry, exactly as intended.

Except Hikaru isn't a "pan Asian" name, it's specifically Japanese. There are names that are pan Asian, Ming would be one example, it is found in many Asian counties, Hikaru isn't.

Anyway, it was novelist Vonda N. McIntyre who coined the first name Hikaru for Sulu in her 1981 novel The Entropy Effect. Nicholas Meyer incorporated that name into The Undiscovered Country at the suggestion of George Takei. I don't think that qualifies as "TPTB."

George Takei and Vonda McIntyre are not TPTB, it was Nicholas Meyer's decision that enter the name into official canon, and Meyer definitely is part of "TPTB."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

So, you're saying that having a helmsman whose ancestry is Asian is OK, as long as there's nothing specific about it, but Kirk can be from Iowa, McCoy can evidently be from Georgia (US), and Scotty can have specifically Scottish ancestry?!?

 

[MacLeod]

What show did you watch? Scotty, Chekov and to a lesser extent Uhura were all proud of their non-American backgrounds. We also saw people of color in positions of authority in the show.

Chekov's Russian pride was nothing but the butt of jokes, Scotty's Scottish pride was near-non-existent and Uhura's WAS non-existent.

But you don't have to overtly display pride in your nationality to be pround of it.