Is it the Federation, or Just Earth that Doesn't Use Money

[DeimosMasque]

So I've been mulling over this one since Star Trek: First Contact first came out in theaters and mentioned the whole "no money" thing in place of the philosophy "Self Improvement" of on the big screen.

Then later slightly mocked on Deep Space Nine by Nog with Jake's whole "It means we don't need money." when he can't explain what the philosophy actually means.

The actual exchange (I bolded some interesting points):

Nog: It's my money, Jake! If you want to bid at the auction, use your own money.
Jake: I'm Human, I don't have any money.
Nog: It's not my fault that your species decided to abandon currency-based economics in favor of some philosophy of self-enhancement.
Jake: Hey, watch it. There's nothing wrong with our philosophy. We work to better ourselves and the rest of Humanity.
Nog: What does that mean exactly?
Jake: It means... it means we don't need money!
Nog: Well, if you don't need money, then you certainly don't need mine!

The exchange has always stuck in my brain for a long time and as I see the discussion on here and elsewhere about the how it might be impossible for the Federation could exist without money... what if it's just Humans?

The way I have seen it is that the United Federation of Planets more like the modern European Union, rather than a corollary to the United States of America. Now while the Euro is the primary currency of the EU, there are other currencies at large as well.

Perhaps that's where the rarely mentioned "Federation Credit" comes in. A universal currency, used by some members but not all. We know from the shows that not all things are something a replicator can make. The biggest example being Latinium. But seems Deuterium and Dilithium are in the same boat.

For example: The Bolians obviously (as of Deep Space Nine) have a currency based economy. The Bank of Bolias. When Quark is blacklisted from Ferengi Commerce; Bolians waiters replaced his Ferengi ones.

Also Voyager made references to the Vulcans having some sort of currency.

Then there are references to mining ops, private traders like Sirano Jones, Harry Mudd, Cassidy Yates and... Ugh... Okana.

In fact wasn't the Tribble an attempt to pay for a drink on K-7?

So to bring it all home. What if it's just the United Earth government that has for sure eliminated money. They just absorb the various costs that still exist in order to create what the humans call "Paradise." Other species in the Federation (and Bajor too once it accepts) keep their currency and probably have an exchange rate in both Federation Credits and possibly GPL after Grand Nagus Rom normalizes relations.

What do you all think?

 

[Nerys Myk]

The writing is sometimes inconsistent.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

I think it's relatively clear that Earth (and perhaps the Federation) don't have "hard currency" as we understand it in modern day, but rather the Federation credit is somewhat akin to bitcoin where the only value is "relative" not "tangible". Therefore, for trade outside of the "Federation system" it's useless so you have to revert to "hard currency" like latinum, Klingon darseks or Cardassian leks or Bajoran litas.

 

[DeimosMasque]

Fair enough. But one of the first things normalized diplomatic relations deals with is exchange rates.

And that still doesn't explain the Bamk of Bolias and why Bolians would work for Quark.

It suggests that some Federation races need money

 

[Ithekro]

Or perhaps the Bolians were renown bankers prior to joining the Federation and maintain that for other worlds because they are really good at it.

 

[Tenacity]

Jake: I'm Human, I don't have any money.

Except only a few episodes before Jake did have money. True he might have spent it all by the time of this quote, but he doesn't have money because he's Human.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

Except only a few episodes before Jake did have money. True he might have spent it all by the time of this quote, but he doesn't have money because he's Human.

Really?

 

[Tenacity]

"hard currency"

With respect, that term may not mean what you might think it means.

Hard currency is currency that has been adopted as an acceptable payment method in multiple countries.

Hard currencies are generally issued by developed western nations that have a strong industrial economy accompanied by a stable government. Hard currencies display high stability and typically experience only minor short-term fluctuations in the foreign exchange market.

Given that the Federation is (24th century) two centuries old, is technologically and industrially advanced, has a stable governing system, and a strong (seemingly) economy, it likely that the Federation does in fact have a hard currency.

This isn't to say that the Federation uses physical currency.

 

[1001001]

If the Federation doesn't use money, how do they compensate the military personnel in Starfleet?

 

[Spot261]

If the Federation doesn't use money, how do they compensate the military personnel in Starfleet?

Or make donations in church?

 

[psCargile]

Oh my god! They don't pay taxes!

 

[Tenacity]

If the Federation doesn't use money, how do they compensate the military personnel in Starfleet?

Multi-colored food cubes.

 

[Shawnster]

The writing is sometimes inconsistent.

There writers were very inconsistent in their use of Human/Federation. It's as if Humans are the dominant species in the Federation and Starfleet. Many episodes appear to use Human and Federation interchangeably.

 

[Dilandu]

Well, if you have such advanced technology as Federation, the money-based economic... just became very hard to mantain.

Seriously. The production of basic good are so automated, that there is no reason NOT to give them for free. Simply because it cost literally near-zero to produce. Moreover, even the more complicated production did not required manual labour in any kind.

Basically, we have a situation when money as equivalent of human productivity lost any sence - because the majority of population simply doesn't produce ANYTHING, and the automated production lines & replicators make most of production basically zero-cost. We could not balanse such system with money; we simply could not evaluate the human productivity in simple, quantative therms anymore. How could you evaluate the "productivity" of scientist, for example? Or artist? Or military officers?

 

[Dilandu]

Oh my god! They don't pay taxes!

They live in communist-style utopia (not the socialist or marxist; communist), of course they don't pay taxes.

 

[Nerys Myk]

There writers were very inconsistent in their use of Human/Federation. It's as if Humans are the dominant species in the Federation and Starfleet. Many episodes appear to use Human and Federation interchangeably.

Yeah, that's always bothered me. They often forget the Federation is a multi-species organization especially when the characters start pontificating. Encounter at Farpoint is a prime example. Q wants to send humanity to it's "room" til it grows up. Great but what about all the other species in the Federation? Are they grounded too? Will they move the capital off Earth? Replace all the humans in Starfleet?

 

[psCargile]

They live in communist-style utopia (not the socialist or marxist; communist), of course they don't pay taxes.

Lol. When your personal enlightenment is being another cog in the bureaucratic machine.

 

[Dilandu]

Lol. When your personal enlightenment is being another cog in the bureaucratic machine.

You making the obvious (and common for westerners, unfortunately) mistake - you are mixing communism with socialism. The bureaucratic machine & government control over production was part of socialism - NOT the communism (at least as communism was assumed by Marx, Lenin & Co). It was assumed by social theoretics, that when society advanced enough to became truly communistic (the socialism was considered only as intermediate step between capitalism and communism), the extensive bureaucracy would no longer be needed - because peoples would be enlighted enough, to govern themselves and control production processes without need of such things.

Strangerly, but it looks a lot like Federation...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I've been saying this for years. It's not "the Federation" that doesn't use money, just Earth and its citizens. Everyone else clearly does, even Federation members living abroad.

Jake doesn't because he's still from Earth, his family is from there, he has citizenship there, registered to vote there, etc. it's pretty obvious that the Maquis do, though, since they are seen buying weapons and equipment from third parties who mostly deal in cash. So it's not the Federation, it's just Earth. Single-payer healthcare, single-payer economy.

Yeah, that's always bothered me. They often forget the Federation is a multi-species organization especially when the characters start pontificating. Encounter at Farpoint is a prime example. Q wants to send humanity to it's "room" til it grows up. Great but what about all the other species in the Federation? Are they grounded too? Will they move the capital off Earth? Replace all the humans in Starfleet?

Starfleet is an Earth-based organization, so it wouldn't really matter. The Federation would probably have to transfer its exploration duties to another organization whose home planet ISN'T being embargoed by a giant omnipotent douche, and that would be annoying but they'd probably still do it.

OTOH, it's possible Q wasn't threatening all of Starfleet, just the Enterprise specifically.

 

[psCargile]

When it comes to Communism, I trust Any Rand over Marx and Engels.