Is it just me, or is Star Trek going the wrong way?

Discussion in 'Future of Trek' started by LunaticBurnout, Oct 9, 2020.

  1. Bork359

    Bork359 Lieutenant Newbie

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    Where do I get off expecting to have a passionate discussion about the merits of Star Trek on an internet Star Trek forum, right? Why not just shut the forum down and replace it with a sign that says "Everyone enjoy Star Trek! Or don't! Doesn't matter!"

    I'm not going to complete your homework assignment and read through pages of debates that happened in the past. Why not just tell me what you think, dude? If your entire position is "I likes what I likes" than sure, I can respect that. It doesn't really add anything to a thread titled "Is it just me or is star trek going the wrong way," now does it? But to each his own.

    I'm not interested in having a conversation where everyone holds hands and decides that accepting each others preferences is the beginning and end of the conversation. We're here to debate. Is Star Trek heading in the right direction? What is the right direction for Star Trek? What are the essential elements required to move a franchise along from one incarnation to the next? Why are they important? Is Discovery/Picard doing? Why or why not? To what degree?
     
  2. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Discovery is doing it. Star Trek is an action/adventure platform with an optimistic view of human capability (note: not outcome) with social commentary woven in, both subtlety and unsubtly at times. That's it.
     
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  3. Bork359

    Bork359 Lieutenant Newbie

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    You've got me there. I've seen very little of TOS besides all of the movies. I do think TNG is the epitome of what Star Trek ought to be, and based on the original cast films I don't see much conflict between the original cast (in the films) and TOS.

    I do however think going back to the original show as a way to score gotcha points is pretty weak though. TNG was huge and much wider in scope than TOS, and far more popular in terms of ratings. More importantly, the series is generally beloved by a large majority of the fan base. This goes back to the (apparently controversial) Wikipedia definition of what canon means:

    In fiction, canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story by its fan base.

    Now, I know many on here don't agree with that definition and think canon is whatever the owners of the IP produce is canon. Legally correct, but shallow. I wholeheartedly endorse the definition above - canon is determined by the fan base in a democratic fashion. TNG was hugely popular and beloved and is now canon. The people have spoken. Discovery and Picard, on the other hand, are sitting at 41% and 55% audience score on RT. Those shows are still in production and neither have achieved anything close to mainstream acceptance by the fans. Why do you think that is? I think that's a question worth debating.
     
  4. Bork359

    Bork359 Lieutenant Newbie

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    I don't see much conflict between the original cast (in the films) and TOS.

    I meant TNG there, not TOS
     
  5. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because fans have a narrow definition of canon.
     
  6. Ghouleddie74

    Ghouleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I wish you'd taken this less argumentative and combative attitude in the first place. Now we can actually debate things.
     
  7. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Here's the thing-even if TNG is what Trek ought to be that doesn't meant that is the only thing it can be. And TOS is Star Trek too, correct? So, Discovery taking references from TOS as well as TNG and DS9, who both did very dark stories, humans acting poorly, evil admirals, and poor decisions. The only optimism presented at times was that our heroes were not as bad as other Starfleet officers. Star Trek is a huge sandbox, not a TNG sized one.
     
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  8. Bork359

    Bork359 Lieutenant Newbie

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    It's not just TNG though, I also liked DS9 and Voyager (and to a lesser extent Enterprise and occasionally Lower Decks).

    DS9 especially did some great storylines about the not so admirable aspects of the federation, but it was never the focus of the show. The core tenants of what made Star Trek Star Trek were not violated there. Our heroes always fought for what was right, and if they ever did something morally questionable (like tricking the Romulans into war) it was done intelligently and with appropriate moral reflection.

    But to your point, discussing what star trek ought to be is the whole point of this discussion. I mean, we could just call everything Star Trek and discuss comparative quality, but that's kind of boring. What if the next James Bond film was a romantic comedy filled with slapstick humor? Like, say James Bond's date tripps over a big pink dildo and lands in a pile of dog poop and the camera pans in on his Bond's as he says "now that's what I call sticky situation."

    I think that would piss off a lot of James Bond fans, and they'd have a right to debate whether it was ever a "true" bond film at all. That sense of whether a new component of a franchise has any right to be considered a legitimate part of the larger story is a valid discussion to have.
     
  9. Ghouleddie74

    Ghouleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Canon is what the studio says it is. End of story. My head canon is whatever I want it to be but that means nothing to anyone else but me unless other people like my ideas and agree with them.
     
  10. EnderAKH

    EnderAKH Commodore Premium Member

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    By and large I am not. I am here to talk excitedly with friends about things I love.
     
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  11. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Nor are they here. But, we, the audience, are actually treated more intelligently and not spoon fed the answer.
     
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  12. Sylvie

    Sylvie Goddess of Mischief Moderator

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    The Roger Moore Bond movies were full of slapstick humor and were well loved by fans.
     
  13. Ghouleddie74

    Ghouleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    And the most financially successful until GoldenEye and the later Brosnan and Craig films, even adjusted for inflation.
     
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  14. The Return of Zombie Cheerleader

    The Return of Zombie Cheerleader Moar Nu Trek Pleeze Premium Member

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    Star Trek is about our heroes facing a challenge and the ups and downs encountered along the way. The challenge may be physical, mental or moral. It may be solved in an hour, two hours or a season. The answers don't always have to be "pretty". Sometime our heroes can falter. DISCO and PICARD aren't doing that any differently.
     
  15. Sylvie

    Sylvie Goddess of Mischief Moderator

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    I’m not sure how the new Treks aren’t optimistic.
     
  16. Hades Temperature Checker

    Hades Temperature Checker Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Because there is no happily ever after.
     
  17. Ghouleddie74

    Ghouleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    TOS didn't even have those. A lot of episodes ended sadly or with tragedy, barely redeemed by the crew learning lessons about humanity and how civilized beings should behave to one another.
     
  18. The Return of Zombie Cheerleader

    The Return of Zombie Cheerleader Moar Nu Trek Pleeze Premium Member

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    Yep.
    "Let's get the hell out of here.

    " A hundred serpents. Serpents for the Garden of Eden. We're very tired, Mister Spock. Beam us up home."

    " Oh, please, don't let them take me. I can't even touch them! Janice, they can't feel. Not like you! They don't love! Please, I want to stay." (fades away)

    "Forget"
     
  19. Sylvie

    Sylvie Goddess of Mischief Moderator

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    I think that the way Discovery is depicting the Federation is even more powerful now than it was before. While TOS was made in a time of turmoil, it was showing that everything worked out and we were better because of it. TNG was even more hopeful and so on. But today we're starting to see the dramatic effects of climate change, there is a rise of fascism in the US and other western countries, and we seem to edging closer to an economic collapse. But Discovery shows that even when all hope seems lost, you can recover and rebuild to something stronger. Even with the Federation on the brink of extinction with no hope in sight, there is a way out. By sticking to their ideals and having faith in each other, they can solve problems that seem impossible to fix and create a brighter future. We can't just stand around and wait for things to fix themselves, we have to fight for it and work towards it. It's a message that we need now more than ever.
     
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  20. Ghouleddie74

    Ghouleddie74 Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    "I wonder...would it have hurt us just to gather a few more laurel leaves?"