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Is Discovery the most polarizing Trek property ever?

They definitely need to move away from the fanwank for season two. It is like they are constantly jumping up and down going "look! see! it's Star Trek! I tell ya!"
...
Subtle nods done intermittently bring a smile to my face. Bashing me over the head with call backs just tends to irritate me. Everyone's mileage will vary.
I really don't see much "fanwank" in the show... and as another poster indicated, there's a balancing act there; the alternative is to do as the first couple seasons of TNG did and pretend there was no previous Trek continuity to tie in with. DSC's creators obviously ruled that out from the start, so it makes sense to make references to existing aspects of the fictional universe. What bits in particular have seemed gratuitous or annoying to you?

There's definitely something a little schizoid in the intersection of content and style, on the show. If they want to really break ground and attract a new audience for Trek they'll need to up the writing game a lot and take some storytelling chances. ... They're trying too hard to have it both ways right now, which may be a result of all the behind-the-scenes jerking around and repurposing of elements.
I think you're onto something here. It was indeed bound to be a tricky balancing act for DSC's creators — trying to come across as "authentic" Star Trek while also offering something new and different. Thinking about it in terms of content vs. style, as your comment does, makes me think that in a lot of ways they've chosen exactly the wrong trade-offs.

What I would have liked to see (and I think it would have worked for audiences, but others can speak for themselves!) was something much closer to previous iterations of Trek in terms of style — something that evoked the on-screen look and feel and tone of TOS, in particular; something that would leave no doubt, the minute you saw it, that you're in the Star Trek universe, although of course with present-day production values — combined with a bolder sense of experimentation in terms of storytelling content.

(There are lots of officially licensed Trek novels out there, after all, where the authors are required by licensing rules to constrain themselves to the boundaries of canon, that nevertheless take creative chances to tell stories unlike anything we've ever seen on screen. That's the approach I'm talking about. Indeed, more than a few of them might have been worth adapting into a series.)

Instead, what DSC seems to have done — and I'm not sure who to blame here, the original showrunners and writers, or their replacements, or CBS execs, but regardless — is the exact opposite of that. They've changed a lot of the stylistic trappings... the makeup, the ship designs, the uniforms, the lighting, even trivial things like the Terran Empire logo, and also introduced elements that seem out-of-place like holographic comms, intra-ship transporters, bridge windows, etc.... so in a lot of ways the show just doesn't look or feel like Star Trek, to the extent that a lot of fans are still insisting it must be a reboot. But in terms of storytelling, they've actually stayed fairly formulaic... not necessarily Trek formula per se, at least in the sense that things are serialized rather than episodic, but certainly familiar television formulas and tropes, rather than anything really innovative and groundbreaking in terms of science-fictional plots and themes.

I can also see the argument for leaning into the fanwank -- in the sense that the entire CBSAA business model is built on appealing to the super fans of their various preexisting properties ... why not just focus on them and lean into the fandom-pleasing, ENT-season-4-style storytelling?
I see what you're trying to say here, but it's complicated by the fact that S4 really was the only good season of ENT, the one that broke away from the mold of recycled Berman-Braga storytelling.

I would just like them to pick a lane. Right now I think they're caught in the middle in a way that doesn't serve them. On the one hand, there's a lot of continuity porn: this detailed weaving of a new character into the Spock/Sarak backstory, picking up these very specific plot threads from "In A Mirror Darkly" and "The Tholian Web", hey there's Harry Mudd, etc. On the other hand, they're throwing in robots and technologically augmented people everywhere, holo-communicators and all this other technology that doesn't track well with the other series.
Interesting. You're clearer here than BillJ upthread about what you see as the fan service aspects... but I'm not sure I agree. The Sarek connection, the use of Mudd, and other little character bits, all seem to me like perfectly fine building blocks. (Okay, I'd agree that going to the MIrror Universe could have waited.) These things contribute to, or at least don't interfere with, telling interesting stories. OTOH, the conflicting tech levels are indeed a good example of stylistic elements that do indeed clash with audience expectations for no good reason.

Their attitude to continuity just strikes me as a bit odd and confused, I want to feel like someone behind the scenes has a stronger grasp on what their take here is.
That I can certainly agree with. In a lot of ways they seem to be straining at gnats while swallowing camels.

I'm not a particular Star Wars fan, so I'm sure there were a billion complaints that fanbase had about this, but "Rogue One" was my favorite of those films. It was a prequel that was rigorous about folding itself into established continuity (visual and otherwise) but also had the most fresh & unique take I'd seen on the Star Wars universe since it's inception. I definitely think it is possible to do something that is super fanwank-y and also good and creative. It's just REALLY, REALLY HARD.
Completely agreed there, too. I'm not a big Star Wars fan either, but I do have to give that franchise credit for very effectively (re)capturing the authentic look and feel of the originals in the new sequels (okay, Rogue One was technically a prequel), whatever one may think about the storytelling.
 
Yeah, but for many people, even 21st Century levels of diversity is too much. If you haven't already, check out the wailing and gnashing of teeth over female and minority chacters in Star Wars.

I can now say I've been in there. Interesting sensibilities that some people are defending.
 
I can see why the did what they did with "continuity porn" or "fanwank" though. That's basically all ENT season 4 was, and that's generally hailed as when the series became worthwhile.

So, for everyone who dreams of having fan input listened to...I'd say that wish was granted. Can't please everyone.

I think DSC's struggles and occasional disjointedness stems from the early departure of Fuller. You now had others trying to execute someone else's (likely already flawed) vision. Easier to do in an episodic format...hard to do with a plotted arc format.

Given the level of quality that has been produced thus far in those adverse circumstances and with Trek's relative history of being awful out of the gate...I'm a huge DSC supporter. It can only get better from here, and I'm already having fun.
 
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Klingon war,

Star Trek in the 23rd Century. Klingons will be the Bad Guys.

Mirror Universe

It's part of Star Trek. It was bound to come up sooner or later. In this case it was "sooner". Even in the series that didn't have the Mirror Universe, TNG had "Yesterday's Enterprise" and VOY had "Living Witness".


He's the Vulcan Ambassador in this time period. It makes sense to have him. He's also Michael's adoptive father. So it makes sense that we'd see him.


As much as I like the character... Okay. That's fair. I can admit that.

But there are certain things that it would make sense for us to see. Those aren't fanwanks. Those are just making use of the time and space Discovery takes place in.

.
.
.

Yes I'm wearing a tutu. But anyway.
 
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I don't get the hangup with the Hologram comms.
Yeah okay, I agree, the comms should have been done through the screen (it actually just looks better) but this is just a visual update. Early TNG it implied the screens were giant hologram screens with depth anyway. I have no problem with them using hologram maps and things.

In terms of "Fanwank". Discovery has only had a few moments of eye rolling fanwank for me. They are, Burnham being the sister of Spock. Did they hire a writer from Fanfiction.net? The dumbass walking a Delta in the sand, The time Tyler dropped "General Order 1" in a situation that had nothing to do with it and that god awful cringe "Needs of the many" romance dialogue.
You can tell these scenes were in there because suits were like "THE TREK FANS WILL CLAP BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT IT IS".

Honestly Discovery could do better to listen to the fans and fan concerns. There is so much missed potential with just the sheer aesthetic of this show. Imagine if they cared about the actual setting and time period, we could have had a cool, updated, mid 20th century modernist look that really stood out, instead we get one of the most generic and bland looking scifi shows ever made.
 
Were it on the network or the Paramount cable network, where more eyes could catch it, the intensity of the polarization would be jumped up, for now in my eyes, so long as it follows the course it's on, functioning as a sidebar andisolated from the spine of the franchise, its oddities can largely be ignored
 
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In terms of polarisation, I think also honestly the Orville has mitigated a lot of it. Pretty much most of the old school Trek fans I see in my social media abandoned Discovery very quickly and all became... Orvillians? Is that what they call themselves?
I know on 4chan the Trek general abandoned Discovery like, 5 episodes in for the most part and /trek/ is just dominated mostly by discussion of DS9. Discovery isn't even talked about like it's a Star Trek show that exists in canon treated more like the JJ films though Orville discussion leaks in every so often.
 
Honestly Discovery could do better to listen to the fans and fan concerns. There is so much missed potential with just the sheer aesthetic of this show. Imagine if they cared about the actual setting and time period, we could have had a cool, updated, mid 20th century modernist look that really stood out, instead we get one of the most generic and bland looking scifi shows ever made.
And get twenty different ways to "fix problems" including slavish adherence to 60s era aesthetic and future thinking?

I swear I watch a completely different show than most.
 
Just for fun (tongue firmly in cheek here...)

Let's play a round of this after tomorrow night's episode airs and the spirited discussions begin yet again!

:biggrin:;)

1478454


In terms of polarisation, I think also honestly the Orville has mitigated a lot of it. Pretty much most of the old school Trek fans I see in my social media abandoned Discovery very quickly and all became... Orvillians? Is that what they call themselves?
I know on 4chan the Trek general abandoned Discovery like, 5 episodes in for the most part and /trek/ is just dominated mostly by discussion of DS9. Discovery isn't even talked about like it's a Star Trek show that exists in canon treated more like the JJ films though Orville discussion leaks in every so often.

Holy crap, bro...you are a one-man onslaught when it comes to completing my Bingo card (see first two posts quoted above)

Hats off to you, Discovery Complaint Champion! Orville? Gene's Vision? Asthetics? Lazy Writing? Fanwank? Not Real Star Trek?

You've got it all covered in like 3 posts. It's like a treasure trove! Usually it takes a couple of message board pages to fill this out. I'm going to need a more challenging card to see if we can up the game here.
 
Star Trek in the 23rd Century. Klingons will be the Bad Guys.



It's part of Star Trek. It was bound to come up sooner or later. In this case it was "sooner". Even in the series that didn't have the Mirror Universe, TNG had "Yesterday's Enterprise" and VOY had "Living Witness".



He's the Vulcan Ambassador in this time period. It makes sense to have him. He's also Michael's adoptive father. So it makes sense that we'd see him.



As much as I like the character... Okay. That's fair. I can admit that.

But there are certain things that it would make sense for us to see. Those aren't fanwanks. Those are just making use of the time and space Discovery takes place in.

.
.
.

Yes I'm wearing a tutu. But anyway.

That's a lot of excuse making for a whole lot of fanwank. Why would a new viewer give a fuck about marble-mouthed Klingons going to war, or that ridiculous MU?
 
That's a lot of excuse making for a whole lot of fanwank. Why would a new viewer give a fuck about marble-mouthed Klingons going to war, or that ridiculous MU?

They wouldn't but they also wouldn't be bent out of shape over it either.

It's Discovery's job to make them care if they didn't know anything about it or had no particular investment going in. Whether or not it makes someone who actually is new care, that depends on the individual in question. I'm not one of those individuals but neither are you.

They can speak for themselves without your help and, good or ill, I encourage them to.
 
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The only things I’m personally not happy with about Disco are the NuKlingons, I’m not a huge fan of the redesign, but at the same time I’m not going to froth over over it either. And overall I’ve not been impressed by the Federation (or Klingon) ships we’ve seen thus far. The expection to that being the USS Shenzhou which IMO is like, one of the prettiest ships ever designed for a Trek series. That ship just beautiful. I also liked the Gagarin, until I realized it was basically the Shenzhou turned upside down.

But having said that I’m not really a huge fan of most Federation vessels. I think the Defiant (DS9) is just god awful ugly (it’s looks like a squashed Platypus) and the Enterprise D isn’t gonna win any beauty contests either. That saucer is just way too big for that ship.
 
That's a lot of excuse making for a whole lot of fanwank. Why would a new viewer give a fuck about marble-mouthed Klingons going to war, or that ridiculous MU?

It's not excuse-making if someone inherently likes the show and doesn't give a shit about the same things that happen to grill your goodies.

People have been making excuses for shitty / inane / convoluted / sub-optimal stuff in Star Trek for 50 years.

It's called fandom.

It's not a new phenomenon.

You should actually try it sometime.
 
I literally stopped watching DSC halfway through one of the episodes and went to bed....the one after Harry Mudd's appearance.

I told myself I'd come back and finish the episode and keep watching but I just never have yet.

I'm still paying for it but I haven't even logged on to CBSAA to watch another episode. I really wanted to like it and follow it. It just wasn't good.

Guess I'll try to catch up later but at this point it feels like an obligation to watch something with the name Star Trek. The optimism for the show and the desire to follow it is non-existent.
 
The only things I’m personally not happy with about Disco are the NuKlingons, I’m not a huge fan of the redesign, but at the same time I’m not going to froth over over it either.

That's the only thing I wasn't too crazy about. But it's not a big deal to me either.

I think the Defiant (DS9) is just god awful ugly (it’s looks like a squashed Platypus)

I like the Defiant. It reminds me of the Ark from '80s Transformers.
 
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