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Insurrection not a bad film

Two points...

The planet is within Federation territory.

The Ba'ku were squatters.

1) Do planets no longer have sovereignty & self-determination once they join the Federation?

2) the So'na & Ba'ku were the same people, so the So'na had no more rights to the place than the Ba'ku. Nor the Ba'ku less rights to it.
How long to does a group have to reside in a place to be no longer squatters?
Not to mention the deceitful way the Federation, a supposedly enlightened mob, went about the whole thing.
 
1) Do planets no longer have sovereignty & self-determination once they join the Federation?

Go ahead and grab a plot of land in Nebraska and claim your a sovereign nation and see how quickly the US reacts. :lol:

Not to mention the deceitful way the Federation, a supposedly enlightened mob, went about the whole thing.

You won't get any argument from me about the Federation flubbing the entire operation.

It was a movie that made less sense than ST '09. :lol:
 
So then, what is the Federation? Is it an organisation of like-minded, sovereign planets that co-operate for trade and security, a Commonwealth of Planets, or what?
 
So then, what is the Federation? Is it an organisation of like-minded, sovereign planets that co-operate for trade and security, a Commonwealth of Planets, or what?

Does it really matter? Some of Micheal Piller's original ideas (highlighted in his unpublished "Making Of...") would have made for a far more compelling (and dramatically satisfying) film.
 
It's message is simply horrible. The Enterprise senior officers take the side of a group of smug, self-centered, Aryan neo-Luddite squatters rather than those who wish to use the resources of the planet to benefit the vastly greater number of people.

Interesting. The message I got from the film was that it's bad for the Federation's military to invade a non-Federation planet, relocate the inhabitants to another planet, and then steal their natural resources. Not very Federation like, not very Prime-Directive like, and pretty much frowned upon by even the "backward humans" of the 20th Century.

More generally, with regard to the OP, I actually liked Insurrection much better than Nemesis. Nemesis was pretty much a lesser clone of TWOK and a bit boring IMO. Insurrection brought with it pretty much everything I liked about TNG. Another thing that I liked about Insurrection was that, when filming it, someone decided to use lights.

I do agree, however, that the Son'a could have been left out.


first, as pointed out below, it IS a Federation planet, which should pretty much have ended the debate right there. Heck, the UFP should've just openly removed them rather than sneaking around.


along with the first point, the PD(Which is actually also a horrible "doctrine" which I totally disagree with) doesn't apply. They weren't indigenous to that planet, they weren't pre-warp or pre-first contact either.


Are you such an absolutist when it comes to property rights that you think the squatting claims of a tiny village outweight the potential benefits to BILLIONS that the planet's resources would've brought?


let me turn Picard's question around. How many does it take before it becomes RIGHT? Would you oppose removing fifty Baku settlers to get at the resources?



what if it was one guy who'd crashed there three hundred years ago? Would you still oppose removing him?
 
I actually prefer Insurrection to First Contact. I do think it was the TNG movie that best captured the tone of the TV series (as far as being an ensemble cast, dealing with morality issues, etc.).

Now, if only they hadn't done the silly joystick thing on the bridge...

I actually agree with you. Although I do really like FC I have grown tired of it from time to time while Insurrection is always enjoyable for me. It is my favorite TNG movie.
 
Most people don't think its bad...its just underwhelming, sort of ordinary. Its not really a story for a movie, it would have been fine on TV. Without an "event" story, people were just not excited about it.

RAMA
 
Two points...

The planet is within Federation territory.

Go ahead and grab a plot of land in Nebraska and claim your a sovereign nation and see how quickly the US reacts. :lol:
Vatican City exists as an enclave entirely within the territorial boundaries of Italy (i.e. within Italian territory), but Vatican City itself is not Italian territory and thus Italy has no legal jurisdiction within. Which brings us to:

1) Do planets no longer have sovereignty & self-determination once they join the Federation?
The Ba'ku did not have any association whatsoever with the Federation, let alone join the Federation. Their planetary system exists within the territorial boundaries of the Federation (as recognized by treaties signed by everyone except the Ba'ku), however, the planet where the Ba'ku lived, nor its inhabitants are members of the Federation, nor have they ever been.

The state of Nebraska is nationally recognized to be under the jurisdiction of the Nebraska state government, and internationally recognized as being United States territory. An area of land (or space) can certainly exist within the territory of another government. It does not, however, necessarily follow that that area is the territory of that other government. It's a subtle distinction, but it's not unheard of in the real world, e.g. San Marino, Vatican City (both within Italian territory), and Lesotho (within the territory of South Africa). With the vastness of interstellar space taken into account, enclaves such as these are likely very common.

Bajor, for example, doesn't answer to the Federation. Neither did Coridan prior to joining the Federation -- Starfleet couldn't just go in there and take their dilithium and then justify it by saying there was a Federation planet to their left and to their right.

The Ba'ku were squatters.
The Ba'ku occupied this planet nearly a century before the Federation was founded and also not less than 20 years before Earth even had warp drive. If ST were real, the Ba'ku would be settling that planet right about now.

I can't think of any instance in the Star Trek Universe where a planet became Federation territory simply because it orbited a star located within the furthest extents of "Federation Space." A planet with a population on it must voluntary join the Federation to be subject to Federation law and "eminent domain" (if that even exists under UFP law). It is not the Terran Empire.

2) the So'na & Ba'ku were the same people, so the So'na had no more rights to the place than the Ba'ku. Nor the Ba'ku less rights to it.
How long to does a group have to reside in a place to be no longer squatters?
Not to mention the deceitful way the Federation, a supposedly enlightened mob, went about the whole thing.
I don't know, but if anyone within the Federation decided to call them squatters, they'd have a pretty difficult time backing that claim up since the Ba'ku inhabited the world well before the Federation existed and Earth even had Warp Drive.

So then, what is the Federation? Is it an organisation of like-minded, sovereign planets that co-operate for trade and security, a Commonwealth of Planets, or what?
It is, literally, a Federation -- a sovereign state consisting of partially self-governing states united by a central government (e.g. The United States, Canada, Australia, Russian Federation). In the case of the UFP, each member's government voluntarily joins the Federation and places their planet under Federation law.

first, as pointed out below, it IS a Federation planet, which should pretty much have ended the debate right there. Heck, the UFP should've just openly removed them rather than sneaking around.
The Ba'ku world was not a Federation planet any more than Vatican City or San Marino are Italian territory. The planet, similar to these Earth-bound examples, simply exists within the physical extents of Federation territory.

along with the first point, the PD(Which is actually also a horrible "doctrine" which I totally disagree with) doesn't apply. They weren't indigenous to that planet, they weren't pre-warp or pre-first contact either.
The Prime Directive has never been restricted to indigenous, pre-warp, pre-first contact civilizations. (TNG: Symbiosis, TNG: Too Short a Season, TNG: Redemption, TNG: The Mind's Eye, DS9: The Circle, VOY: Prototype). The inhabitants of Moab IV, in fact, were non-indigenous, warp capable, and aware of other life forms outside of their system. The only thing that prevented the Prime Directive from applying is that the inhabitant's ancestors originated on Earth (TNG: The Masterpiece Society).

Are you such an absolutist when it comes to property rights that you think the squatting claims of a tiny village outweight the potential benefits to BILLIONS that the planet's resources would've brought?
Unless you are stating that "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" is justification for the Federation to invade any inhabited planet that has needed resources (which is against what the UFP stands for), then you must still be working under the erroneous assumption that sovereign conclaves don't exist and that the Ba'ku homeworld itself was Federation territory simply because it lies inside the physical extents of Federation space, or, put simply, that the Federation is an empire that conquers planets simply by existing.

let me turn Picard's question around. How many does it take before it becomes RIGHT? Would you oppose removing fifty Baku settlers to get at the resources?
This question still assumes that the Ba'ku homeworld itself is Federation territory, which it is not (see above).

what if it was one guy who'd crashed there three hundred years ago? Would you still oppose removing him?
No, I wouldn't. I see a distinct difference between a thriving society built by a civilization of people and a single person living in what's left of his space ship.

EDIT: Hell, the Federation got thrown off of Velara III, a planet within Federation territory, by the indigenous SAND (TNG: Home Soil).
 
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debating the merits of preserving a small, artificial neo-Luddite village versus bringing the CURE FOR AGING to billions and billions is just ludicrous.


this wasn't some fuel source they were after. It was pretty much the most important medical/scientific resource in the galaxy.


The only reason to take the Baku side would be if you utterly rejected any kind of empirical utilitarian/consequentialist arguments in favor of a fundamentalist and rigid view of property rights, in which case there's nothing to really debate.


as for your points about the PD, I'm well aware of how modern Trek has bastardized the PD. It was meant in original Trek to refer to pre-warp, pre-first contact civilizations. They twisted the doctrine to make it easier to use as a plot device to create fake drama and fake dilemmas.
 
The visual effects suck...

Also, unrelated, I used to think the Ba'ku were humans from the 22nd century. Dunno why.
 
debating the merits of preserving a small, artificial neo-Luddite village versus bringing the CURE FOR AGING to billions and billions is just ludicrous.
Aging is NOT a disease! The worship of the "Cult of Youth" is what is ludicrous.
 
debating the merits of preserving a small, artificial neo-Luddite village versus bringing the CURE FOR AGING to billions and billions is just ludicrous.


this wasn't some fuel source they were after. It was pretty much the most important medical/scientific resource in the galaxy.


The only reason to take the Baku side would be if you utterly rejected any kind of empirical utilitarian/consequentialist arguments in favor of a fundamentalist and rigid view of property rights, in which case there's nothing to really debate.
Actually, I tend to see things in more shades of grey. Your points (with regard to this important scientific and medical discovery, not whether the planet is Federation territory) are valid -- except the problem is -- no one bothered to ask the Ba'ku if they might please let them make their planet uninhabitable and destroy their home and everything they've built over the last 3 and a half centuries.

as for your points about the PD, I'm well aware of how modern Trek has bastardized the PD. It was meant in original Trek to refer to pre-warp, pre-first contact civilizations. They twisted the doctrine to make it easier to use as a plot device to create fake drama and fake dilemmas.
Yes, but that's the "pick and choose" canon.
 
debating the merits of preserving a small, artificial neo-Luddite village versus bringing the CURE FOR AGING to billions and billions is just ludicrous.


this wasn't some fuel source they were after. It was pretty much the most important medical/scientific resource in the galaxy.


The only reason to take the Baku side would be if you utterly rejected any kind of empirical utilitarian/consequentialist arguments in favor of a fundamentalist and rigid view of property rights, in which case there's nothing to really debate.


as for your points about the PD, I'm well aware of how modern Trek has bastardized the PD. It was meant in original Trek to refer to pre-warp, pre-first contact civilizations. They twisted the doctrine to make it easier to use as a plot device to create fake drama and fake dilemmas.

I'm really torn on this issue, but leans towards supporting the Bak'u. There have just been far too many cases of self righteous, more powerful organizations dictating how smaller ones should live. I find that if it happens once there, its a slippery slope to doing it as a matter of policy. This is very scary, and far to imperial for my tastes. Any nation can STILL argue that stealing land and gold was the best thing for the planet Earth (And America/Britian/Spain, France, etc) on the North American continent. We can ignore it now because we can't undo it, but was it the RIGHT thing to do?? Search your conscience about it.

RAMA
 
debating the merits of preserving a small, artificial neo-Luddite village versus bringing the CURE FOR AGING to billions and billions is just ludicrous.
Aging is NOT a disease! The worship of the "Cult of Youth" is what is ludicrous.



That type of belief is wrong on so many levels. Just because something is a part of nature doesn't mean we should be resigned to suffering from it. Humans have the potential intelligence and technology to reshape their environment, their genes, etc. to take control of their own destinies.


defects in vision can be natural. Is the attempt to correct vision part of the "cult of being able to see with 20/20 ability?"

As to your remarks on youth,

let me ask you: would you rather be in the body of a twenty or thirty year-old person or in the body of a seventy or eighty-year-old person?


ok, that's what I thought. we don't "worship" youth because we're shallow. We have real reasons to pursue youth as a goal. Youth means stamina, strength, better looks, etc. The only advantage of age is experience.


But if you could be in a body that stayed young , you'd still gain the experience from life without the tired, defective, wrinkled, falling apart body that comes from aging.
 
That type of belief is wrong on so many levels. Just because something is a part of nature doesn't mean we should be resigned to suffering from it. Humans have the potential intelligence and technology to reshape their environment, their genes, etc. to take control of their own destinies.
:lol: fair dinkum. Wrong in your opinion, not mine.

let me ask you: would you rather be in the body of a twenty or thirty year-old person or in the body of a seventy or eighty-year-old person?
I'm quite happy in my 50.5yo body myself.
ETA: Happier in my 50yo skin & body than I was at 40 or 30. Are you unhappy with yourself? Your last couple of sentences really sound like you have trouble with the idea of mortality.
 
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let me ask you: would you rather be in the body of a twenty or thirty year-old person or in the body of a seventy or eighty-year-old person?
I'm quite happy in my 50.5yo body myself.
ETA: Happier in my 50yo skin & body than I was at 40 or 30.



perhaps. Or maybe you've convinced yourself that you are because right now there's not an alternative.


I assume for the second part you mean psychologically or because of other circumstances.


I assume however, that biologically speaking you FELT better as a younger person, though.(unless you had special circumstances like being very out of shape as a younger person or something)


I don't know what "fair dinkum" means though, so I can't respond to it.
 
debating the merits of preserving a small, artificial neo-Luddite village versus bringing the CURE FOR AGING to billions and billions is just ludicrous.


this wasn't some fuel source they were after. It was pretty much the most important medical/scientific resource in the galaxy.


The only reason to take the Baku side would be if you utterly rejected any kind of empirical utilitarian/consequentialist arguments in favor of a fundamentalist and rigid view of property rights, in which case there's nothing to really debate.
Actually, I tend to see things in more shades of grey. Your points (with regard to this important scientific and medical discovery, not whether the planet is Federation territory) are valid -- except the problem is -- no one bothered to ask the Ba'ku if they might please let them make their planet uninhabitable and destroy their home and everything they've built over the last 3 and a half centuries.

as for your points about the PD, I'm well aware of how modern Trek has bastardized the PD. It was meant in original Trek to refer to pre-warp, pre-first contact civilizations. They twisted the doctrine to make it easier to use as a plot device to create fake drama and fake dilemmas.
Yes, but that's the "pick and choose" canon.


I think given what we know from the film, the Baku would have said no.
 
No actually I'm fitter and healthier now than I was 10-20 years ago. I'm not as tired anymore as I no longer have 4 small children "running me ragged" everyday. Birthing 4 babies in 8 years and the following toddler years tend to be one on the more tiring experiences I have had. The alternative is dead, which I'm not either.
 
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