If you could rewrite Voyager

[Anwar]

The double standard is exactly what I mean, it's okay for the other Captains to have their crews engage in occasional spats (mainly because they never let those things get in the way of their duties) if they're men but if a Female Captain dealt with a crew that were outright hostile to one another and the whole show was about this then it's a sign of female incompetence that she couldn't resolve the issues quickly.

Of course if she WAS a man then there'd be no problem.

Eddington didn't come to power until after VOY started, before him the shows made it clear that the Maquis' battle was with the Cardassians not with the Feds.

I'm against Uberfoes in general. I don't think there should be any that last more than one episode, and if they do they should be permanently destroyed by the 2nd or 3rd appearance like the Crystalline Entity.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway was working on orders to hunt these people to the death or the capture. It was totally bag and tag. The Tricobolt weapon was obviously a special missions weapon. The mission had to be to destroy Chakotay's base of operations as either shock and awe going into it to hogtie these criminals, or poisoning the well after the fact making sure that no new Maquis cells could move in and recycle the resources Chcakotay built up.

You have to remember, when she picked up Tom that there was a ninety 5 percent Chance that the Maquis if they hadn't already killed Tuvok they were torturing him for information and intelligence.

They killed her friend.

Mercy?

Fuck mercy.

They killed her friend.

And if they weren't murdered, can you imagine spending the rest of your life in a place like Huntly or Otorohunga? Death or the rest of their lives in Earth's toilet bowl? And we're not talking about a nice prison where they feed you. It's a penal colony (unless the definition has changed somewhat in the last few hundred years, because it probably has.) they're dropped off on the shore line with the clothes on their back and you'll be lucky not to be raped and eaten by nightfall, a certain dread which I can testify to form walking through the ganglands of Glen Innes as a teenager uncertain if I am wearing the right colours.

DS9 and TNG had set up who and what the Maquis were. Why they were doing what they were doing and what lengths they were prepared to go to to see those convictions carried out. If a Federation ship got between them and their target. Blasted to atoms. If a Federation ship tried to hunt them? Blasted to atoms. I'm remembering what Harvey Kietel said in the Resivoir Dogs "I don't want to shoot any one but if some one is standing between me and freedom, I don't really have a choice, especially if they're a cop."

Eddington is the natural evolution of all that.

Look at how Spock clung to his Vulcan ideals and mannerisms surrounded by humans, and professed subtly that he was normal and it was they who were all deficient and crazy, but you would barely every know that all the Starfleet able crewmen walking around are forced convict prison labour three meals away from mutiny.

Quite almost never.

 

[Anwar]

By the time VOY began, all TNG and DS9 had done was set up the Maquis as former Fed citizens who willingly left the Federation to live in the DMZ and were now fighting the Cardassians who were out to kill them. They didn't become this "F*** everyone else we're going to rule the DMZ even if we have to commit total War Crimes to do it!" group until 2-3 years later. Chakotay's group were just out to fight the Cardies nothing more.

If the other crew had been ROMULANS, then we have something to work with.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm pretty sure that the Maquis were shooting back at Sisko's bunch in a small flotilla of Shuttles in their season 2 two parter with Cal Hudson leading the "bad guys".

 

[Anwar]

Yes, they fired at them for trying to interfere with their war with the Cardies. They weren't going outside of the DMZ to attack the Feds or blow up DS9, they only did that to get at the Cardies.

The Cardies were the real enemy all along.

 

[Guy Gardener]

And the Cardassians used Political pressure to force Starfleet to put the Maquis down for them.

Starfleet was Cardassias bitch.

Starfleet was a busy body who kept getting inbetween the Maquis and their targets.

Not a safe place to stand.

It wasn't the Maquis fault that the Cardassians were smart enough to have some one else do their dirty work for them, is it?

tactically speaking the Maquis had to begin attacking federation resources just to make sure that they were not out gunned and surrounded at every turn.

Kim said that he was the editor fo the Academy new paper (in his freshman year) when this all started... Gods, sometimes they make him out to be this huge Batmanesque character and other times he's smooching with holographic cows.

So that's four years.

And it all probably really started in TNG the Wounded with Robert Maxwell going mad attacking Cardassian freighters, and it all spiraled out of control from there.

 

[Anwar]

The Maquis had only existed for about 1 year when VOY started, so Kim couldn't have been a Freshman then. If he was fresh out of the Academy, then he'd have been a Senior when the DMZ conflict started.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Don't forget supply lines and hiding.

Federation sympathizers to the cause were forwarding resources and weapons. they had to go deep into Federation space to get all that they needed to fight their war or even deeper to steal what they needed.

And running away.

If the feds are chasing them, they go into the dmz or cardie space. If the cardies are chasing them they into the dmz of federation space. if the cardie farmers are chasing them they have to go into federation space.

The Maquis are safest in federation space because it's easier to run away from the feds even though they are more likely to fire back when pursued by Cardassians but running is safer than even a battle weighted in your favour.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Maquis had only existed for about 1 year when VOY started, so Kim couldn't have been a Freshman then. If he was fresh out of the Academy, then he'd have been a Senior when the DMZ conflict started.

]KIM: When I was in school, I was editor of the Academy newspaper for a year. I monitored subspace transmissions I got reports on some of the first activity by the Maquis against the Cardassians. I wrote an editorial about it, and the students became polarized on the issue. They debated the pros and cons and gained an insight into the entire history of the political rebellion. Now, that's the power of journalism.
NEELIX: What did your professors say when you told them you were going to publish the editorial?
KIM: I didn't tell them. It's the job of a journalist to be independent.

So no mention of when in Kims education this happened other than 2371 minus 4..

DREADNOUGHT: Affirmative. Probability of being in the Delta quadrant remains negligible. When that option is rejected new probability assessment indicates that you have changed loyalties, B'Elanna. You are now co-operating with the Cardassian - Federation alliance as described in the treaty of 2367, a treaty which has been rejected by the Maquis. Humanoid life support aboard this vessel has been terminated. Approaching target at full impulse. Stage one alert has been activated. Initiating final detonation sequence.

'67 (The signing of the treaty and Rob Maxwell going batshit) to '71 (Caretaker) is four to five years depending on what months we are talking about in a which a few variables took place, but the Cardassians were Killing federation farmers perhaps as early as '66 quiet like.

Kim was 21 in Caretaker and was supposedly a super genius just like Wesley who had no reason to be admitted so late in life (Riker and Yar were 14, Wesley tried and failed when he was 15.)

Did Kim spend 5 years at the academy or just take a year sabbatical for some reason?

 

[DarKush]

The double standard is exactly what I mean, it's okay for the other Captains to have their crews engage in occasional spats (mainly because they never let those things get in the way of their duties) if they're men but if a Female Captain dealt with a crew that were outright hostile to one another and the whole show was about this then it's a sign of female incompetence that she couldn't resolve the issues quickly.

Of course if she WAS a man then there'd be no problem.

Eddington didn't come to power until after VOY started, before him the shows made it clear that the Maquis' battle was with the Cardassians not with the Feds.

I'm against Uberfoes in general. I don't think there should be any that last more than one episode, and if they do they should be permanently destroyed by the 2nd or 3rd appearance like the Crystalline Entity.

I never said that interpersonal conflict would be solely what VOY should be about, but that it should be an important part of the series, mainly in the sense that it is something we could watch the crew overcome in time, with the captain's leadership. I'm sure there are double standards and perhaps things I'm missing on a subconscious/conscious level as a guy, but I'm not sure if I buy that continued interpersonal, or occassional interpersonal conflict would be a sign of weakness. Particularly if the writers did a good job of showing both sides of whatever argument/debate. Even with VOY as it stood, there was the occassional balking at Janeway's orders from Chakotay or Torres and I don't think that made Janeway look weak.

I disagree that the Maquis didn't take up arms against the Federation. From my recollection this happened in TNG's "Preemptive Strike". Also, the Cal Hudson Maquis episodes showed that at least their was a willingness on the part of some Maquis to fight the Federation. I do agree that the Cardassians were their major concern, but the Federation was seen as a betrayer at worst or ineffectual regarding protecting or advocating for the ex-Federation citizens in the DMZ.

 

[Anwar]

That's the problem with the Maquis' lack of development prior to VOY. Some episodes said they WEREN'T Fed citizens anymore and willingly gave it up (with the Feds telling very clearly that they wouldn't be able to protect them), others saying that they WERE Fed citizens. Not enough thought was put into the Maquis.

And whenever you hear complaints about VOY one of the most frequent ones is "By not having there be lots of tension between them and the Maquis they threw out the premise of the show", meaning that the audience never would have been satisfied by the tensions EVER being resolved and wanted them to last all 7 years. For the Captain to not be able to resolve things in 7 years is a sign of utter incompetence.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She got the crew to get along with Borg and eat talaxian cooking.

Our girl is a uniter not a divider.



I just can't beleive the big deal Chakoty made to Tom about being his BodyGuard, protecting him from constant Maquis assassination attempts and bitterness... A month in I suspect B'Elanna was the only female Maquis crewman he hadn't slept with.

Fairweather terrorist scum.

 

[DarKush]

That's the problem with the Maquis' lack of development prior to VOY. Some episodes said they WEREN'T Fed citizens anymore and willingly gave it up (with the Feds telling very clearly that they wouldn't be able to protect them), others saying that they WERE Fed citizens. Not enough thought was put into the Maquis.

And whenever you hear complaints about VOY one of the most frequent ones is "By not having there be lots of tension between them and the Maquis they threw out the premise of the show", meaning that the audience never would have been satisfied by the tensions EVER being resolved and wanted them to last all 7 years. For the Captain to not be able to resolve things in 7 years is a sign of utter incompetence.

I still disagree. I would argue that the captain needed to be able to find a way to get people to put their differences to the side in order to work for a common purpose. But that doesn't necessarily mean that those differences will melt away or be forgotten, or occassionally flare up again.

I think the premise of the show was more Lost in Space than a divided crew. However, the divided crew aspect was something touted by the show and so I can understand some people wanting them to play that out instead of tying it up almost in a neat bow by the end of the pilot. When they put back on the Starfleet uniforms, that was a wrap.

I do agree that the Maquis weren't handled as well as they should've been. I woud've liked to have seen more of the Maquis who weren't former Starfleet. Or having Maquis who were Federation citizens and pissed about what had happened to the other border worlds. Perhaps they had family on a planet given to the Cardassians. And also having Maquis who were ex-Federation citizens from those ceded worlds. It would've added more complexity to the situation, but maybe that would've been too hard for the audience to grasp. Don't know. It is something I would've liked to have seen though.

 

[BillJ]

The problem with the whole Maquis angle: a territorial dispute doesn't much matter when your thrown so far from home you'll probably not see it again in your lifetime.

Seems pointless to continue to hold a grudge over something you no longer have a stake in.

 

[Anwar]

Exactly.

Now, if the other crew were Romulans then there's something to work with.

And anyways, DS9's conflict of Kira vs Sisko faded away after the first season and no one complained. Sure, there were some occasional bits of conflict but those were one-shot things and not a series plotline.

If there WAS to be Maquis conflict, it should've been resolved by the end of the first season, partially into the second season AT MOST.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well to be fair, Sisko became her god.

Literally.

It's unimaginable the hardass that woman must be to still treat "god" like any other alien dickhead trying to micromanage the fate of her homeworld for an entire year.

Besides the Unity issue was put to one side in worst Case Scenario. Tuvok prepared for the balloon to drop... And it didn't.

Remember the ratio.

2:13(? close enough)
The only choice the Maquis really ever had was to stay or walk away since they didn't have enough crew to run voyager, and neither did Janeway with out them, but is was insanely unrealistic that no one decided to leave in the 37s when given the opportunity to hang out with a civilization of humans who bared zero ill will against the Maquis.

Though just because the Maquis couldn't use Voyager as a ship, they could have used it as a building if they were to set up a colony on some planet theat looked hospitable. Voyagers Warp Core could power a burgeoning civilization for a few generations if all it had to worry about was heat and food if there was no need for warp flight shields and weapons.

 

[DarKush]

The problem with the whole Maquis angle: a territorial dispute doesn't much matter when your thrown so far from home you'll probably not see it again in your lifetime.

Seems pointless to continue to hold a grudge over something you no longer have a stake in.

Well, I look at in terms of the hardened feelings and mistrust that were, or perhaps could've been built up between the Maquis and Starfleeters. Despite a displacement in location, that would take time to get over. Plus it might lead to differences in opinion on a variety of issues, and how to do things. Why would the Maquis be inclined to just follow orders or tow the line of the Prime Directive, for example? I could see this leading to all types of debates that go beyond the territorial dispute that started the conflict.

Regarding the Romulans/Federation. What makes them more real enemies than the Maquis in this sense? The Earth-Romulan War was like 200 years in the past and even the undefined Tomed Incident was about 50-60 years past. The Romulan-Federation conflict is also a territorial dispute, in large part, but it has also sprouted side issues and hardened feelings and suspicions that have built up over centuries. Granted the Romulans and Federation have been at it far longer than the Maquis and Federation, and it isn't a completely similar situation, however, in the larger sense, the same question of why hold on to this grudge between them if they are no longer in the Alpha Quadrant where it 'matters'?

To me the 'real' enemies angle works best if it was the Cardassians and Federation being forced to work together. By the time the show premiered, the Federation had just wrapped up a long-running conflict (Federation-Cardassian War) and were entering an uneasy peace. It would've been awesome to perhaps see their tenuous alliance start to unravel once Voyager got news of Cardassia joining the Dominion or the Dominion War. Though I love the Romulans and don't feel they have really gotten their just due despite their appearances in every Trek series, the Cardassians would've worked better in this scenario.

 

[DarKush]

Exactly.

Now, if the other crew were Romulans then there's something to work with.

And anyways, DS9's conflict of Kira vs Sisko faded away after the first season and no one complained. Sure, there were some occasional bits of conflict but those were one-shot things and not a series plotline.

If there WAS to be Maquis conflict, it should've been resolved by the end of the first season, partially into the second season AT MOST.

DS9's Kira-Sisko conflicts did largely fade away early on, but that was not a selling point of the show, like VOY's divided crew angle was. The Bajoran government had invited the Federation to be there. There was concern from some of the Bajorans, like Kira, and some even went to the extreme, like the Kon Ma, but for the most part Starfleet had been invited and when Sisko was declared the Emissary that did a lot to soften feelings, as GG pointed out. With VOY, the Maquis and Starfleet officers were thrown together. It was totally different situation.

Also, interpersonal conflict did not fade away throughout the series, though it perhaps lessened over time as the Dominion War ramped up.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I liked it how Kira almost eased her way into being Dukats mistress until that old lady hanged herself in protest of the new occupation.

Basically no matter how shitty someone's life is they adapt and accept it... Unless they have an ounce of self respect.

 

[Anwar]

To me the 'real' enemies angle works best if it was the Cardassians and Federation being forced to work together. By the time the show premiered, the Federation had just wrapped up a long-running conflict (Federation-Cardassian War) and were entering an uneasy peace. It would've been awesome to perhaps see their tenuous alliance start to unravel once Voyager got news of Cardassia joining the Dominion or the Dominion War. Though I love the Romulans and don't feel they have really gotten their just due despite their appearances in every Trek series, the Cardassians would've worked better in this scenario.

The Cardassians and Klingons got the Lion's share of screentime in TNG and DS9. The Romulans, on the other hand have not.

They've been the enemies of the Federation even before there WAS a Federation, and they have real defined ideologies/politics/cultural values that are not in line with Fed thinking. Their conflict with the Feds has always been about them getting in their way of conquering the Galaxy (a "Manifest Destiny" thing), so the Rommies would be more likely to try and get involved with local issues for their own advantages/get ahold of special technologies for use at home/maybe even try and build their own Delta Empire. Much more militaristic and manipulative than a PD-abiding bunch.

And there'd always be the question of what would happen when they got back to the Alpha Quadrant, whether or not the Rommies would make a last effort to steal the ship and take all it's data back to Romulus. Even after years of peaceful co-existence their loyalty to the Empire would be there.

And when they learned of the War it might convince them even moreso to try and take over the ship to get their advanced data to Romulus first.