If you could rewrite Voyager

[hux]

All very interesting stuff but i still think the maquis thing was wasted - as others have said; if they had no intention of using this to create tension and conflict then why use the maquis idea at all - they didn't even attempt to go anywhere with it - personally, i hated the kazon but could see what they were trying to do with them - they were an enemy to deal with on a regular basis but it clearly wasn't working so they dropped it (fair enough) but with the maquis, they didn't even bother - i can only guess that they realised it wasn't going to work before they even started filming and were looking for the quickest way possible to put it to bed

someone mentioned janeway having kids and i think this kind of thing would be interesting - more relationships taking place on board (this too could create some interesting tension) what if janeway had a...ahem....sex buddy - maybe someone of little consequence (some unseen ensign) after all these people had every reason to believe they might potentially be spending the rest of their lives on the ship before getting home - seems odd that they didn't persue more personal relations - especially after the first few years - there was an episode where janeway was unhappy with tom and b'ellana's romance and chakotay pointed out that on a ship that could take decades to get home, that sort of thing was to be expected and possible some children might appear onboard but they didn't persue this possibility either - that might have been interesting - after all, it was essentially a community travelling in space but it seemed like the only people who went to the mess or the holodecks were the regulars - would have been nice to have seen new people coming in and out of the show to highlight that it had become like a small village where everybody new everybody else

 

[kimc]

Also would it be a bad thing to mention that I really DON'T like Janeway and was kind of glad she got "off'd" in the novels?




Someone dared me to post it.

Well I'd dump you in a vat of coffee for that except it's Monday morning and I NEED that coffee.

 

[Brit]

Have them find a way home, it drops them off right near Earth... but it is a very very rough ride.

Hail Starfleet, get the welcome home stuff out of the way then suddenly:

"Engineering to the Bridge! The technobabble that sent us home disrupted the technobable-techobabble on the antimatter system... we're 30 seconds from a catastrophic failure there is nothing I can do!"

Ship explodes, everyone dies.


...seriously folks. Not every story has a happy ending.

Yes it does if the people that "purchase" the products sold with the story line insist on a happy ending. Star Trek was never sold as dystopia, it was sold as a better future, and because of that it owes it's audience the ending that they have paid for.

It is still a story and you know, stories do not have to follow an individual's view of real life in the first place, and "real life" really is the pursuit of the happy ending.

Set up the payoffs and payoff the setups. Voyager's set up was to get home, and the pay off would be the crew getting home. Fiction may reflect parts of your so called "real life" but it isn't real life at all and fiction "owes" its audience the ending that it promised in the beginning.

Brit

 

[BillJ]

Yes it does if the people that "purchase" the products sold with the story line insist on a happy ending. Star Trek was never sold as dystopia, it was sold as a better future, and because of that it owes it's audience the ending that they have paid for.

Brit

I always love when people who watch TV think they're owed something by the producers. With the airing of 'Endgame', Star Trek: Voyager was over. Whether they blow the ship up or Janeway and Chuckles drop on the the lawn of Starfleet Academy and do the nasty... it's over. There was nothing in its' future but a group of mediocre novels.

They would've been doing Star Trek: Voyager a favor if they had left whether they got home an open-ended question. But they didn't, they chose to end the story, I moved on. Perhaps you should as well.

 

[DarKush]

If I had my druthers, I would've placed Voyager after DS9 and not had it running side-by-side with it, so that each series could've gotten the joy of being the solo show for a while. Under that premise, I would replace the Maquis with the Cardassians-perhaps militants opposed to the Allied occupation of Cardassian territory.

But if I kept it concurrent with DS9 I would go another route. Starting with the cast:

-Captain Shelby instead of Janeway. Shelby left an indeliable impression among many Trek fans, myself included, and she's forever tied to perhaps TNG's greatest hour. I thought she was a character with a lot of grit, fire, and a learning curve that we could see over the course of the series. Plus her encounters with the Borg would've had more gravity due to BOBW.

-Ro Laren for XO. I would've had Ro leading the Maquis cell that was being hunted by VOY. Once again, its another tie to TNG to bring those fans over, and it would've been unique and cool to see a Trek show headed by two women. Also the Ro-Shelby fights would've been awesome.

-Tuvok. Pretty much would've left the same, except that he was Ro's mentor/friend. He would've been in the Maquis. Tuvok becomes the tactical/security officer.

-Torres: Would've made her an Orion/human hybrid. For one, we hadn't seen many Orions by that point in Trek and two it would've perhaps given her a different set of challenges than the one's we had seen with Klingons working in human-centric environments that we had sort of seen already with Worf. Her sexuality/vibe, unintentional or not, could've led to some interesting interpersonal reactions. Torres is something of an ice queen, very frigid in an attempt to hide the sexuality smoldering underneath, and also to counter people's stereotypes about her race. Both she and Paris also share initial doubts about the Maquis.

-Kim is "Kem": I would've made Kem a Cardassian, the first in Starfleet. Despite his talents, he was often looked over for ship assignments, but Shelby rewards merit. She's something of a protective figure for him as he deals with bias, subtle and overt, from the Maquis and even from some of his crewmates.

-Paris: Would've pretty much kept him the same personality wise, though he would've been a bit more rakish. Paris is a screw up, but he's still in Starfleet. Chakotay is not a fan of Paris, but Shelby has ties to his father and wants to give Paris another shot. Both Paris and Kem form a friendship due to their outcast status. Paris eventually falls in love with Torres. It's an opposites attract thing.

-Seska: Would've made a male and Ro Laren's lover. He is secretly a Cardassian working his own angles. On second thought, I might've left Seska a female.

-Chakotay: Would've kept him in Starfleet. He would've been a Science Officer and Shelby's trusted friend. Some of the Maquis would think he was a punk for not 'defending' his home planet Dorvan V by joining them. It had been a tough, soul searching decision for him to stay in the Fleet, when even some of his family joined the Maquis. Eventually he and Ro would become lovers.

-The Doctor. Wouldn't change a thing.

-Danara Pel: A cured Viidian medic who decides to stay with the ship. She takes on the Kes role. Probably had her and Tuvok become lovers down the road. Though she wouldn't survive the entire journey.

-Seven of Nine: Her appearance would've stayed monstrous for a lot longer and gradually as she became more human, would she look more human. However, I only would've kept her on the ship for about six months or a year. Kem would form a doomed relationship with Seven.

-Neelix: I would've made him a bit more shady and not so damned annoying.

Other changes:

-Voyager would've been a ship designed specifically to travel in the Badlands, and that made it a prize for both psychological and technical reasons for the Maquis to nab.
-The Maquis don't wear Starfleet uniforms. And if they do its in the middle or toward the end of the series.
-There would be a lot of mistrust, arguments, fighting, and even a mutiny or two early on, but that conflict would lessen in intensity as the series went on, however it would never fade away completely.
-There would be no holodeck usage-due to power consumption. Also replicators wouldn't get continued use either.
-There would be more of a focus on getting food, fuel. The ship would take some hits and wouldn't be as pristine as it is at the start of the series. There would be some dents and marks that couldn't be erased or cleaned.
-The early season (s) big bads would've been the Viidians over the Kazon. I thought the Viidians were pretty creepy and had a pretty unique and compelling motivation.
-Kazon: Would've made them reptilian as opposed to low-rent Klingons.
-Species 8742 would've done much more damage to the Borg, nearly wiping them out completely. There would've been no terraspheres or shape changing to look human, and no Boothby aliens.
-Probably done more with the Voth, who had a compelling reason to destroy Voyager. Also the Vaadwaur would've got more screen time and a power upgrade.

 

[Anwar]

I just don't think that the Maquis tensions should last more than 1 season. If they lasted for all 7 years of the show, it'd be sexist that the Female Captain couldn't control her crew and they'd all have to be pretty screwed up folks to hate each other for 7 years with no progress.

One season, maybe a season and a half then drop it for the most part. Then it's only semi-sexist and a bit more forgivable.

And DarKush, the simple fact of the matter is that there was NOTHING VOY could have done with the Borg that would have satisfied ANYONE.

 

[DarKush]

^
I don't think it would be an issue of the captain not controlling her crew. I'm not speaking of open hostility or mutinies every season, but more an issue of little comments and hardened feelings that might come out every now and then. No captain controls the lives, feelings, and thoughts of their crew on the level that you seem to suggest. Now, rallying them to overlook their differences, or put them to the side, is another matter. That is a matter of leadership and it was not something I specifically spelled out, but it is something that I imagine a Captain Shelby would have in abundance. However, I envision that she would have to learn some things along the way and perhaps not be such the hard charger that we saw in BOBW. In real life it takes time to build up trust, especially if you've just been shooting at the person you are now trying to work with, or if that person feels you've abandoned them to the Cardassians, or if a person feels that you've turned your back on the Fleet/Federation. That takes time. Putting the Maquis in Starfleet uniforms by the end of the pilot didn't feel realistic. It didn't feel natural or organic.

Even though Stargate Universe moves at a snail's pace at times, I feel that the character relationships are handled a bit better. Young and Rush don't like each other and that's obvious but they are learning, sometimes due to painful lessons, that they have to trust each other. I think if they are successful it will make for a stronger bond down the road (if the show survives). I felt that TPTB had Chakotay knuckle under to Janeway way too easy. It had taken a lot for him to pull off that uniform in the first place, and we didn't get to see him struggle with the idea of putting it back on again-albeit for the benefit of his Maquis. Of course they left the Starfleet vessel in much better shape which gave the Starfleeters the advantage. Perhaps if they hadn't, we could've seen a bit more compromise, throughout. It would've been nice to see more of the Maquis way of doing things incorporated into how the ship survived/conducted business. To be fair, I was only a casual watcher and I know that Torres applied some engineering ingenuity from time to time, but I don't know if the Maquis way affected other decisions on the ship.

I'm not sure its sexist to have conflict among the crew. This was done on BSG, this is being done on SGU now, and both of the commanders are male and I don't see it as an issue of their lack of competence. Even Sisko and Kira had their differences of opinion. Now if they portrayed a female captain lacking in competence, intelligence, or strength, or perhaps overly sexualized her, then I could see that as sexism. To be fair, Star Trek has had a spotty record in that regard, starting all the way back with those miniskirts in TOS and all the catsuits since. I'm not complaining though, because I'm a guy and loved Uhura, Troi, Kira, Seven, and T'Pol's form fitting attire.

With the Borg, to be fair, you could say that not everyone is satisified with anything TPTB do. Some are, some aren't. At best you hope you get a majority of people to be cool with it as opposed to dividing the fans or having fans reject your ideas. I would argue that a common theme, expressed on this board and others was that the Borg were overused, overexposed, and to some extent defanged. To avoid that you do the opposite, by not featuring them as much, and making each confrontation very difficult to survive, or adding new dimensions to the Borg. I will say that VOY largely succeeded in adding new dimensions to the Borg (I didn't necessarily agree with those choices though), but the new dimensions were added. I don't think they did a good job in keeping the Borg threatening.

Species 8472 was a good way to kiss the Borg goodbye and establish a VOY specific threat, but TPTB held their punches. They wanted their cake and to eat it too. Plus they were riding high off First Contact. The Borg were perhaps the most recognizable enemies since the Klingons so they were too valuable a marketing tool. But I remember a time when the very mention of the Borg on TNG would give the crew pause. By the end of VOY they were taking out cubes with their tricked out ship like it wasn't anything. Species 8472 could've been for VOY what the Borg were for TNG. An uberpowerful, mysterious enemy, with a fanatical drive, this time even more genocidal.

Also, one thing that VOY could've done is not feature the Borg after that episode were Chakotay ran into that planet of former drones, or move on from Borg space after "Scorpion". Seven of Nine, a smart move business-wise (and creatively) for the most part, wasn't inevitable though. Neither was keeping her on the show long term. They didn't have to feature the Borg as much as they did. They didn't have to make Borg children, etc., etc.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I just don't think that the Maquis tensions should last more than 1 season. If they lasted for all 7 years of the show, it'd be sexist that the Female Captain couldn't control her crew and they'd all have to be pretty screwed up folks to hate each other for 7 years with no progress.

So there's an accident which causes a cell of Alqueda terrorists and a platoon of US Marines to be marooned on a desert island, and their only hope to make it back to "civilization" is to pool their resources and work together?

Okay maybe the KKK and the Crips is more believable?

but anyway that's how copasetic Starflleet and the Maquis should have been, and maybe because most of them were raised Federation they wouldn't have been killing each other in their beds but there should have been debate, pride and questions about how they are being represented and used by the new world order on Voyager.

I'll concede that they became one crew quickly but not over night as the storytelling would have us believe, and there would have been some considerable reservation if their was no motivation to act "good" if how they treated Kim, one of Starfleet's own was anything to go by.

 

[Anwar]

But it's not comparable because the Feds and Maquis aren't real enemies the way the US and Bin Laden's forces are. The Maquis were the enemies of Cardassia and mostly kept the fight to them.

Now, if the other crew were Romulans THEN there's something.

But yeah, having the first female Captain also be the first one who is unable to keep her crew under control is a sexist message. It's why Adama and Young were male commanders, because then it's not sexist.

Personally, I think the Borg were done as an enemy after BOBW. You can't really beat that story, and they're just too boring as an enemy too so there were only 2-3 stories you could get out of them in the first place.

And when they tried to do something new with the Borg in "Scorpion" all they got for it was whining about how the Borg were now ruined because there was someone out there who could easily win against them. It didn't matter that it was some super-powerful alien species, that it happened at ALL was the problem because they audience had created this image of the Borg as totally invincible in their minds.

I would have just explained that the Delta Quadrant is full of species more powerful than the Borg and they're always getting their butts kicked by them. Those Single Cubes they send to the Alpha Quadrant are all they can spare for long-range missions because they need the rest of them. Then VOY would run into them just as they're being wiped out for the last time by one of the Super-Aliens, then that would be it for the Borg. Done and gone, forever. Seven would be one survivor but the Collective would be annihilated.

Frankly, Uberfoes are a dumb idea if they last more than one episode. Because you can't beat an Uberfoe and it's irresponsible to just leave them around after the show is done. Uberfoes should be one-shot deals, while the major enemies of the shows should be enemies that don't need bizarre ways of beating them. The Dominion could always be beaten in normal combat, for example.

That's what VOY needed, a series-long enemy that they could always fight the normal way. Not an Uberfoe.

 

[indolover]

Voyager's problems were production-oriented.

If I were a producer on the show, I would have introduced better continuity and character development. I also would have dropped Neelix and Kes, and had a Starfleet nurse and even a Starfleet mess hall chief.

 

[BillJ]

I also would have dropped Neelix and Kes, and had a Starfleet nurse and even a Starfleet mess hall chief.

Which wouldn't have made a hill of beans difference for the show in the long run.

 

[Guy Gardener]

But yeah, having the first female Captain also be the first one who is unable to keep her crew under control is a sexist message. It's why Adama and Young were male commanders, because then it's not sexist.

Madge Simspon(?Is that right? No. Dear god.) Madge SINCLAIR was the first female Captain in Star Trek IV and Rachel Garrett was the first SIGNIFICANT female Captain much later in yesterdays Enterprise... However, then you have to step back and remember how unparrallely awesome Joanne Lynville was in The Enterprise Incident in (dear lord) 1968. Now I'm pretty certain Carolyn Seymore is a bit of a ham, and she did a great job as the bitch (there's few other ways to describe how she ran that ship in face of the Enemy, she lead with her balls. Big ones.) in the Face of the Enemy, but here's a magnificent aside I just read on the wiki, apparently Joanne was offered the part ni Face of the Enemy first, to reprise her role from the TOS era, a huge coup for continuity no, but was unfortunately double booked.

Plenty of females.

Anwar I think it's more sexist to only create limited, coddled and scaled down problems which make Janeway look competent only relatively in just the midterm and that it's sad that she is never given the opportunity to overcome and prove who is the boss if put to task against a real bastard of a problem(Were they really making it easier for her than a male captain the whole time? Now that's discrimination!). You're suggesting (claiming it's society who has the problem really?) that she is too weak to be put in front of fully fledged ominous situations and enemies because it's possible we might notice that she's a "girl" if she wavers in even the slightest?

How callow the adventures were we expected to suffer if the producers had no faith in their hero to face down anything more cunning and dastardly than a Pakled? What is the ten times more action packed, gory and pathotic Voyager that would have been filmed if their had been been a bloke for Captain?

(Archer was more of a little girl than Janeway.)

Can you imagine an episode where Chakotay is beating to a lick all his Maquis terrorist friends who are rowdy with issues about Following a starfleet Officer and bile riddenly becoming Starfleet officers themselves since their command hierarchy is settled I believe some what like how the Klingons do it with duels to the death?

O.

back in the mid 80s, Storm took command of the Morlocks (A colony (thousands of them, think Linda Hamilton's Beauty and the Beast) of less than human looking Mutants living in the sewer systems of New York City) by winning a knife fight with Calisto, their then current leader... there was this whole "You're a goody two shoes hero, you haven't got what it takes to follow through with this, and I'm going to..." which is when Storm guts her. A couple organs fall out I think when she starts pulling the blade up from Calistio's belly to her tits. Then Storm says something like "I wasn't always a hero."

That's what should have happened here.

Single combat.

Thunderfuckingdome.

Janeway should have beaten Maquis leadership out of Chakotay with her bare knuckles.

Respect for their traditions and all.

 

[Anwar]

You're suggesting (claiming it's society who has the problem really?) that she is too weak to be put in front of fully fledged ominous situations and enemies because it's possible we might notice that she's a "girl" if she wavers in even the slightest?

Well, yes. If she wavers then it'll just be "Oh, she's a woman of course she was going to fail!" instead of "Well, she's in a rough situation compared to the past Captains so it makes sense she'd not be in total control all the time."

How callow the adventures were we expected to suffer if the producers had no faith in their hero to face down anything more cunning and dastardly than a Pakled?

It was more they thought the audience would have no faith in a woman who couldn't control her crew and the situation from day one.

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's like Charlie's Angels never happened.

 

[indolover]

I also would have dropped Neelix and Kes, and had a Starfleet nurse and even a Starfleet mess hall chief.

Which wouldn't have made a hill of beans difference for the show in the long run.

Neelix and Kes were IMO the weak links. I think replacing them with regular Alpha Quadrant species would have improved the show.

 

[BillJ]

Neelix and Kes were IMO the weak links. I think replacing them with regular Alpha Quadrant species would have improved the show.

I don't think the characters in concept were flawed. But like much of Star Trek: Voyager, it was the execution that was lacking.

 

[Avon]

i would have killed off janeway and Boxleiter'd this show.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I was remarking to myself the other day that if Sheridan had showed up on Babylon 5 a few episodes earlier then it would have been more of a Tron Reunion than usual when it's just him and Londo on screen.

Bruce missed David Warner by about an inch.

Actually, if Janeway, Tuvok and Chakotay bought the farm, Tom and B'Elanna would be in position to be a power couple in the lead of the ship, it's just a question of who is on top since they arguabley both have the same rank (except for the season where he was an ensign.) even though she has a heard of elephants more command experience from managing Engineering.

B'Elanna might be more interesting as Captain.

More volatile, less touchy feely.

And when the writers rooms opts for plotting that makes her seem like a psychopath, we can just blame it on her Klingon Blood which has nothing to do with her gender.

 

[DarKush]

Anwar,

I still don't get how having some conflict/difference of opinion throughout the series makes a female captain weak. McCoy and Spock argued throughout TOS and it didn't make Kirk look weak. There were occasional spats among the crews on the other shows and that didn't make the other captains look weak. It seems like you're saying that a female captain should have a level of dictatorial control to be perceived as strong. Conversely some might call her a b if she comes across as too controlling.

I don't think a female character needs to be totalitarian to be taken seriously in the center seat. Granted, I do believe that sexism exists, that it is a continuing problem in our society, and us Trek fans aren't alway as enlightened as we like to think we are. I also understand, or least think I can, that females have to do more or be harder at times to be taken seriously in a male dominated field (i.e. Hillary Clinton or Sarah Palin). But I don't buy your argument-which sounds to me like-if the crew isn't totally working together, humming along-the female captain will be considered a failure or not competent. Plus its not being true to the premise of the show, with two warring crews finding a way to work together. Janeway faced a set of challenges that none of the other Trek captains had to face. The closest one being Sisko, who had to work with the Bajorans.

There's no organization in history where everyone has worked together swimmingly. One of the issues I had with Roddenberry's vision was this shiny, happy conflict free future. It was most evident on TNG, but thankfully the writers would throw us a bone every now and then (Ro, Barclay, Jellico, etc.), a character that caused the crew to have some reactions, and sometimes some conflict. This didn't make any of those captains less competent. Granted, perhaps because they were males they would be given the benefit of the doubt.

However, I could see an argument being made that if you had a female captain that wasn't challenged, that wasn't tested, that she might be perceived as not 'earning' her seat. Having a female captain be confronted with the challenge of bringing the Maquis-Starfleet together in an organic, yet lasting way would be a great example of her leadership.

Regarding the Maquis and Starfleet not being enemies, tell that to Eddington for example. If someone is shooting at you, that's an enemy. I would argue that many of the Maquis felt betrayed by the Federation and didn't feel they owed them any loyalty. Granted, its possible that they viewed the Cardassians as worse, but that doesn't take away the fact that many Maquis viewed the Federation with suspicion and hostility. Even on VOY, this was played out, though IMO, not as effectively as it could've been.

Regarding uberfoes, I do agree that you have to be careful in your usage of them. I think its best to use them once or very, very seldomly. I am not in the camp that whined about the Borg being punked by Species 8472. I thought Species 8472 was awesome, a very unique and genuinely alien threat. I wish more had been done to explore their culture, but not to the extent that it took away all the mystery. I don't think I would've had the DQ filled with villains/species that were more powerful than the Borg. I think that would've been overkill. I think VOY had it about right in terms of the uberfoes. It's just I think they rushed to make Species 8472 relatable too much, too soon (perhaps because of budget restraints), but whatever the reason it watered down a great villainous species. And their Borg stuff was just overdone.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I believe Anwar is saying that the producers believed there was a double standard in 1994 they were not prepared to rile against, not that he personally has these issues.

Is rile a real word?

Have we evolved a little as an audience in the last 16 years?