If TMP had kept going

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by seigezunt, Dec 10, 2018.

  1. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    On a tangent more related to the original thread, I wonder what changes to the characters might have been deemed more appropriate in any sequels. Would Sulu or Uhura finally have got a love interest in a historical romp? It would seem a shame to send Uhura back to the sixties and not give her a couple scenes to do with civil rights.

    It looks like they were keen to focus more on the cultural aspects of the Klingons and this might have been fun. But the staging and plot sound very similar to CotEoF right down to the savage pirates in Ellison's original version.

    Did Roddenberry genuinely think he could persuade Ellison to get on board and let him use the Guardian again? I wonder if Grace Lee Whitney still had any currency with him given that they'd split up over her drug use in his house. He wrote a decent role for Rand in his original and I wonder if any part of his anger over the changes they made to the original was to do with the way she had been treated. Would Rand have got more than a cameo in a sequel I wonder.

    I think a story more tangential to the assassination might have been more likeable. A detective plot with teams consisting of the main characters tracking down the Klingon time team while Kirk romances Sister Melba Kreeler, played by Whoopi Goldberg.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  2. Therin of Andor

    Therin of Andor Admiral Admiral

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    Nimoy had said "No" to "Phase II", so was replaced by Xon (as science officer) and Decker (as exec). Robert Wise coerced him to return for TMP. Nimoy was very clear in his refusal to do ST II. He had not enjoyed the filming process of TMP. Harve Bennett (and Nick Meyer) tempted him back with the promise of a great death scene, originally scripted to be very early in the film. Had Nimoy refused to return, of course, Spock would have been "written out in another way". Saavik was introduced as a Vulcan replacement, and there was always Xon in the wings.

    But Spock died because Nimoy found the idea... fascinating.
     
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  3. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Given how often Nimoy came back to play Spock, it seems likely he would have returned to the fold at some point but the thought that we would have lost Trek's most iconic scene is troubling. On the plus side, it would have spared us Into Darkness.
     
  4. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Uhura is not African American, she's African African.

    20th century American Civil rights would be more of a distant curiosity, than something meaty that is connected to her own family timeline... Unless her ancestors lived in America during the 20th century and then moved to the United States of Africa at a later date.
     
  5. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    True, but that in itself gives the character some meat to chew on, which she rarely gets in the movies.

    I suppose, with no Spock, having Xon or Saavik kill Kennedy would be less of a shock.
     
  6. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    But I like Into Darkness, I think it's the best one of the three.
     
  7. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    That's like trying to pick your favourite Trump heir.
     
  8. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I find it to be heavy-handed with too many niggling annoyances for me to enjoy the good bits. It's always been my view that with a few tiny tweaks, they could have used Garth of Izar to better effect.

    The use of a portable transporter unit to beam to an alien world, and an enemy world at that, was taking an awful idea from the previous movie and making it far, far worse. Similarly, Kirk displays nominal command ability again. Troi failed her command test by using similar tactics as Kirk. Don't tell your engineers to abandon ship so you can kick your ship better. Shouldn't they stay on board to try and fix Impulse power, emergency power, pressor beams, or plain old thrusters to shift the ship's trajectory away from the city into the (very) nearby sea instead of killing thousands?

    The death scene was so derivative, it actually made me laugh, although I might have appreciated it more if Kirk had stayed dead. If it had been Garth's blood, it could have had added side effects (shape changing, creeping insanity) that could have been fodder for future outings.

    I will admit though that Pike's death did choke me up a bit. It is interesting to look at the two deaths and consider why one is emotional and one is hollow.
     
  9. gottacook

    gottacook Captain Captain

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    You're assuming there will be anything left for any of them to inherit. (Nonetheless I agree concerning the latter-day movies.)
     
  10. Guy Gardener

    Guy Gardener Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Debt is an asset.
     
  11. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    ...out of a lineup?
     
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  12. Greg Cox

    Greg Cox Admiral Premium Member

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    Or read the publicity materials that came out around the time of the movie, or even the printed program that was handed out at some screenings on opening night. (Yes, that was actually a thing.)

    But, yeah, that line makes no sense, and serves no purpose in the movie, unless you've somehow read about the Deltans' super-sexuality in some sort of book or article or something. One suspects that there might have been more exposition about Deltan sexuality in an earlier version of the script (which was being rewritten nearly daily during filming), but which got cut out at some point, leaving that line dangling all by itself without any sort of context.

    As Therin correctly points out, it's a notion that kinda wandered over from the Series Bible into the movie without anybody bothering to explain it to the audience.
     
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  13. CorporalCaptain

    CorporalCaptain Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Actually, there was a scene that was cut that was among those put back in for the ABC movie version (the so-called Special Longer Version), that takes place immediately after Ilia arrives, where Ilia explains that the celibacy oath is about not taking advantage of a sexually immature species. You can see the scene here starting at 2:35.



    So, there was a more complete explanation scripted and filmed, but it just got cut.
     
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  14. Discofan

    Discofan Vice Admiral Commodore

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    Just imagine how bad it would have been if Sulu had been straight!:rommie:
     
  15. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That was a good call, since Deltans being more sexually mature than humans never figures into the plot at all. If they'd just cut the "oath of celibacy" line, too, we wouldn't be confused by it 40 years later.
     
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  16. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wonder how many children asked their parents what an "oath of celibacy" was.

    ...may have been worth it just for that.
     
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  17. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I like it. Not everything has to be explained in detail; I have an imagination. I didn't need to see the Kessel Run either...
     
  18. plynch

    plynch Commodore Commodore

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    Sulu's fawning is over the top.
     
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  19. Pauln6

    Pauln6 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Oh yeah, that scene is very hammy but Trek has never been subtle about this sort of stuff has it? "Captain, look at my legs...," springs to mind.
     
  20. JonnyQuest037

    JonnyQuest037 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    You can tell from the context of the scene in Star Wars that the Kessel Run is some sort of measure of speed or a regular trading route. In TMP, it's "She's... Deltan," some hemming and hawing with no context whatsoever, and then Ilia saying, "My oath of celibacy is on record, Captain," out of nowhere. You get the idea that the oath of celibacy is important somehow, but there's never an indication as to how or why.
     
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