If TMP had kept going

[Pauln6]

On a tangent more related to the original thread, I wonder what changes to the characters might have been deemed more appropriate in any sequels. Would Sulu or Uhura finally have got a love interest in a historical romp? It would seem a shame to send Uhura back to the sixties and not give her a couple scenes to do with civil rights.

It looks like they were keen to focus more on the cultural aspects of the Klingons and this might have been fun. But the staging and plot sound very similar to CotEoF right down to the savage pirates in Ellison's original version.

Did Roddenberry genuinely think he could persuade Ellison to get on board and let him use the Guardian again? I wonder if Grace Lee Whitney still had any currency with him given that they'd split up over her drug use in his house. He wrote a decent role for Rand in his original and I wonder if any part of his anger over the changes they made to the original was to do with the way she had been treated. Would Rand have got more than a cameo in a sequel I wonder.

I think a story more tangential to the assassination might have been more likeable. A detective plot with teams consisting of the main characters tracking down the Klingon time team while Kirk romances Sister Melba Kreeler, played by Whoopi Goldberg.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Of course , there is no reason why Spock had to die. He could have been written out in another way.

Nimoy had said "No" to "Phase II", so was replaced by Xon (as science officer) and Decker (as exec). Robert Wise coerced him to return for TMP. Nimoy was very clear in his refusal to do ST II. He had not enjoyed the filming process of TMP. Harve Bennett (and Nick Meyer) tempted him back with the promise of a great death scene, originally scripted to be very early in the film. Had Nimoy refused to return, of course, Spock would have been "written out in another way". Saavik was introduced as a Vulcan replacement, and there was always Xon in the wings.

But Spock died because Nimoy found the idea... fascinating.

 

[Pauln6]

Nimoy had said "No" to "Phase II", so was replaced by Xon (as science officer) and Decker (as exec). Robert Wise coerced him to return for TMP. Nimoy was very clear in his refusal to do ST II. He had not enjoyed the filming process of TMP. Harve Bennett (and Nick Meyer) tempted him back with the promise of a great death scene, originally scripted to be very early in the film. Had Nimoy refused to return, of course, Spock would have been "written out in another way". Saavik was introduced as a Vulcan replacement, and there was always Xon in the wings.

But Spock died because Nimoy found the idea... fascinating.

Given how often Nimoy came back to play Spock, it seems likely he would have returned to the fold at some point but the thought that we would have lost Trek's most iconic scene is troubling. On the plus side, it would have spared us Into Darkness.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Uhura is not African American, she's African African.

20th century American Civil rights would be more of a distant curiosity, than something meaty that is connected to her own family timeline... Unless her ancestors lived in America during the 20th century and then moved to the United States of Africa at a later date.

 

[Pauln6]

Uhura is not African American, she's African African.

20th century American Civil rights would be more of a distant curiosity, than something meaty that is connected to her own family timeline... Unless her ancestors lived in America during the 20th century and then moved to the United States of Africa at a later date.

True, but that in itself gives the character some meat to chew on, which she rarely gets in the movies.

I suppose, with no Spock, having Xon or Saavik kill Kennedy would be less of a shock.

 

[Discofan]

Given how often Nimoy came back to play Spock, it seems likely he would have returned to the fold at some point but the thought that we would have lost Trek's most iconic scene is troubling. On the plus side, it would have spared us Into Darkness.

But I like Into Darkness, I think it's the best one of the three.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That's like trying to pick your favourite Trump heir.

 

[Pauln6]

But I like Into Darkness, I think it's the best one of the three.

I find it to be heavy-handed with too many niggling annoyances for me to enjoy the good bits. It's always been my view that with a few tiny tweaks, they could have used Garth of Izar to better effect.

The use of a portable transporter unit to beam to an alien world, and an enemy world at that, was taking an awful idea from the previous movie and making it far, far worse. Similarly, Kirk displays nominal command ability again. Troi failed her command test by using similar tactics as Kirk. Don't tell your engineers to abandon ship so you can kick your ship better. Shouldn't they stay on board to try and fix Impulse power, emergency power, pressor beams, or plain old thrusters to shift the ship's trajectory away from the city into the (very) nearby sea instead of killing thousands?

The death scene was so derivative, it actually made me laugh, although I might have appreciated it more if Kirk had stayed dead. If it had been Garth's blood, it could have had added side effects (shape changing, creeping insanity) that could have been fodder for future outings.

I will admit though that Pike's death did choke me up a bit. It is interesting to look at the two deaths and consider why one is emotional and one is hollow.

 

[gottacook]

That's like trying to pick your favourite Trump heir.

You're assuming there will be anything left for any of them to inherit. (Nonetheless I agree concerning the latter-day movies.)

 

[Guy Gardener]

Debt is an asset.

 

[Discofan]

That's like trying to pick your favorite Trump heir.

...out of a lineup?

 

[Greg Cox]

So IOW, you can't understand it if you don't buy the books.

Or read the publicity materials that came out around the time of the movie, or even the printed program that was handed out at some screenings on opening night. (Yes, that was actually a thing.)

But, yeah, that line makes no sense, and serves no purpose in the movie, unless you've somehow read about the Deltans' super-sexuality in some sort of book or article or something. One suspects that there might have been more exposition about Deltan sexuality in an earlier version of the script (which was being rewritten nearly daily during filming), but which got cut out at some point, leaving that line dangling all by itself without any sort of context.

As Therin correctly points out, it's a notion that kinda wandered over from the Series Bible into the movie without anybody bothering to explain it to the audience.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I still don't get why the first thing she told Kirk was that her oath of celibacy was on record. Do you have any idea?

Or read the publicity materials that came out around the time of the movie, or even the printed program that was handed out at some screenings on opening night. (Yes, that was actually a thing.)

But, yeah, that line makes no sense, and serves no purpose in the movie, unless you've somehow read about the Deltans' super-sexuality in some sort of book or article or something. One suspects that there might have been more exposition about Deltan sexuality in an earlier version of the script (which was being rewritten nearly daily during filming), but which got cut out at some point, leaving that line dangling all by itself without any sort of context.

As Therin correctly points out, it's a notion that kinda wandered over from the Series Bible into the movie without anybody bothering to explain it to the audience.

Actually, there was a scene that was cut that was among those put back in for the ABC movie version (the so-called Special Longer Version), that takes place immediately after Ilia arrives, where Ilia explains that the celibacy oath is about not taking advantage of a sexually immature species. You can see the scene here starting at 2:35.

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So, there was a more complete explanation scripted and filmed, but it just got cut.

 

[Discofan]

Actually, there was a scene that was cut that was among those put back in for the ABC movie version (the so-called Special Longer Version), that takes place immediately after Ilia arrives, where Ilia explains that the celibacy oath is about not taking advantage of a sexually immature species. You can see the scene here starting at 2:35.

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So, there was a more complete explanation scripted and filmed, but it just got cut.

Just imagine how bad it would have been if Sulu had been straight!

 

[JonnyQuest037]

So, there was a more complete explanation scripted and filmed, but it just got cut.

That was a good call, since Deltans being more sexually mature than humans never figures into the plot at all. If they'd just cut the "oath of celibacy" line, too, we wouldn't be confused by it 40 years later.

 

[DonIago]

I wonder how many children asked their parents what an "oath of celibacy" was.

...may have been worth it just for that.

 

[Pauln6]

I like it. Not everything has to be explained in detail; I have an imagination. I didn't need to see the Kessel Run either...

 

[plynch]

Sulu's fawning is over the top.

 

[Pauln6]

Sulu's fawning is over the top.

Oh yeah, that scene is very hammy but Trek has never been subtle about this sort of stuff has it? "Captain, look at my legs...," springs to mind.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I like it. Not everything has to be explained in detail; I have an imagination. I didn't need to see the Kessel Run either...

You can tell from the context of the scene in Star Wars that the Kessel Run is some sort of measure of speed or a regular trading route. In TMP, it's "She's... Deltan," some hemming and hawing with no context whatsoever, and then Ilia saying, "My oath of celibacy is on record, Captain," out of nowhere. You get the idea that the oath of celibacy is important somehow, but there's never an indication as to how or why.