I want to experience Batman and Superman

[ryan123450]

So I've never read any DC Comics, but I want to experience, in some short form, the story of Batman and Superman. From what I've gathered Frank Miller's continuity tells the story of Batman from Year One until his death. Is this correct?

Also, if I were to want to assume All-Star Superman takes place in this same continuity, what other stand alone Superman series could I place with it to show the story of Superman from birth until death or retirement?

Thanks for your help in advance.

 

[the Dagman]

If you want the real story of Batman, stay away from all of Frank Miller's stories aside from Year One which is in the main continuity. Year One is a real good start, but even his acclaimed Dark Knight Returns kind of goes off the rails for a new Batman reader. Save that for later, when you are a bit more familiar with the character.

As for Superman, DC is currently putting out a series called Secret Origin which is updating the Man of Steel's origin to reflect the upheavals "New" Earth has gone through over the last few years in the DC Multiverse.

 

[Christopher]

So I've never read any DC Comics, but I want to experience, in some short form, the story of Batman and Superman. From what I've gathered Frank Miller's continuity tells the story of Batman from Year One until his death. Is this correct?

I second the recommendation that you should avoid Miller except for Year One. His other main Batman projects are in an alternate continuity, and his All-Star Batman and Robin is insanely, eye-bleedingly awful.

Also, if I were to want to assume All-Star Superman takes place in this same continuity, what other stand alone Superman series could I place with it to show the story of Superman from birth until death or retirement?

All-Star Superman is in a continuity all its own, though it's kind of a modern updating of the Silver Age ('50s-'60s) comics. It's a self-contained 12-issue limited series that takes its own revisionist take on the mythos.

 

[T.Geiger]

I suppose it depends on what you want to experience exactly. There have been dozens of takes on both characters.

If you want comics, I can't be of much help. I've read only a handful of Batman. And while I like the run of Superman I was present for, there's no condensed version I can point you to.

Their early 90s "death" sagas are striking in their similarities and contrasts and capture their respective spirits fairly well, but it certainly shouldn't be a starting point.

Kingdom Come is the best comic book tale I've ever laid eyes on, capturing the characters even better over a short time, but that's even less of a starting point. Its much better appreciated once familiar with the larger DC pantheon.

I consider both of Miller's Dark Knight arcs to be worth less than the paper they're printed on, largely because of the exceptionally poor writing and pacing. But I have to admit that I think he pegged Batman and Superman both pretty well on where they would wind up in such an extreme situation.

If you are interested in putting a little time into this, and aren't limiting yourself to comics, the DCAU is a prime experience for both characters and expands into the pantheon in later years. These series (particular Batman) actually doubled back and inspired the comics with several new characters and fresh takes on existing ones. However, I suspect that the other heroes may not be as well represented, comic-wise, as Batman and Superman themselves were.

 

[Admiral_Young]

For a primer on Batman I would start you off with the following:

-Batman Year One
-Batman Long Halloween
-Batman Dark Victory

 

[byron lomax]

I don't think Miller's Dark Knight Returns is the first Batman story you should read, but it is definitely worth reading. I thought Miller's writing was fantastic and captured the aged Batman perfectly.

If you have an interest in Batman's training and background, I recommend the story Blind Justice. It's not frequently cited as one of the Batman classics but it's a great, great story. Also, the early Legends of the Dark Knight stories Shaman and Prey are companions, of sorts, to Year One, which look further into his training and early career. If you liked YO, I recommend those - but be warned, they've been out of print for some time!

 

[O'Dib]

I'm not an avid reader of either character. In fact Dark Night Returns is probably the only Batman arc I ever read start to finish. But on the Superman side of things, I think you'd be ill-served by going for whatever's currently in-continuity. Secret Origins has failed to impress me. Having never read Superman yourself, I'm sure you know the broad strokes, nonetheless. Therefore, John Byrne's Man of Steel is a fantastic take on the origin story that shouldn't be missed. Try out Superman for all Seasons. From thereon, the Death of Superman arc is entertaining enough. Gotta admit I haven't delved into his return though.. Finally, wherever All-Star fits or doesn't fit, it's definitely a must read.

 

[Christopher]

The Dark Knight Returns was my first exposure to the serious Batman, but I'm not sure I'd really recommend it at all. People say that Frank Miller was brilliant then and crazy now, but really, TDKR features the same excesses that characterize his work today -- the over-the-top violence and cynicism, the over-the-top machismo and objectification of women, the over-the-top portrayal of Batman as a dangerous sociopath, the over-the-top everything. Frank Miller wouldn't know subtlety if it kicked him in the teeth. Hell, a kick in the teeth is subtle by Frank Miller standards.

 

[Dick Whitman]

Agreed. I think Miller's minimalistic art on TDKR sequel forced people to look at the quality of the writing. Which is not much different than the original. Which had the benefit of its approach to the character being a novelty at the time.

 

[Admiral_Young]

I seem to remember an article on the web somewhere I read shortly after TDKSA came out where he mentioned that the art was like that on purpose...he had no intention on repeating what he did on TDKR and thus why Strikes Again was so...shockingly different from it's predecessor. I still remember the trial of Frank Miller thread that we had going on here years ago...

 

[coolghoul]

Agreed. I think Miller's minimalistic art on TDKR sequel forced people to look at the quality of the writing. Which is not much different than the original. Which had the benefit of its approach to the character being a novelty at the time.

Some of us. While I've been criticized before on "speaking for others" while objecting to that artwork - I'll be careful now - *I* find the art of DKR is so bad, that I've borrowed and returned the graphic novel several times from my neighborhood library without going more than a few pages into the story. I find it *unreadable*. Just write a 'goddamn' (pun intended) novel or prose if you have to be wordy.

{Edit - One more thing - I am right now re-reading some of JMS' run on Spider-Man. He's wordy too. And John Romita Jr's art is extremely stylized (and not "pretty" like say Frank Cho or Ed Benes). Still the thing is eminently readable unlike DKR. Does anybody know if Frank Miller can actually draw?}

Which reminds me of a short story that he had at the end which I found an interesting take on Bats.

I haven't read DKSA since it should be read after TDKR to get the full impact (and hence the multiple attempts at starting to read TDKR - that and all the praise it gets among fanboys)

I can and did read Year One and also All Star Batman And Robin (ASBAR) which is insanely funny - you have to read the Lockbox review on it even if you don't read that series at all - it is as outrageously funny as ASBAR is insane!

And a followup review on the next few issues in ASBAR to continue the hilarity.

I have also read 300 and also Sin City and a very small portion of his Daredevil run.

Frankly, I am discomfited by how his "heroic" characters decry against violence against women but he shows the acts in a little too graphic detail (the way he writes it - giving the thoughts or words of the "attacker", it gives me a distinctly uncomfortable feeling that he actually enjoys that stuff). That is probably why other people also sometimes call his treatment misogynistic, I guess.

Moving back to the thread topic - Simply because it was my introduction to Superman, I would probably recommend picking up some of the trades/collections prior to John Byrne's reboot (I *hate* that birthing chamber idea). While Superman normally is involved in what we now call superdickery, I still think of them as completely affecting how I see Superman even today.

But maybe try John Byrne's reboot as a starting point - Things starting anew and all that. It's the ground floor of one era/continuity. John Byrne's Man of Steel is the graphic novel for that.

 

[ryan123450]

So am I correct in thinking that since DC has 'rebooted" several times, there are several complete origin stories for both Batman and Superman? Are any of them in continuity with each other and contain both an origin and death/retirement story?

 

[Lapis Exilis]

So am I correct in thinking that since DC has 'rebooted" several times, there are several complete origin stories for both Batman and Superman? Are any of them in continuity with each other and contain both an origin and death/retirement story?

Comics are not as straight forward as that. (Though I think it would serve them well to try such a strategy, but that's wishing after impossible things.) There are numerous tellings of origins, continuity is loose at best throughout DC's various histories, and nothing contains both origin and death/ retirement - for one thing, these characters never die or retire for good.

For Batman, try this run:

Year One - absolutely the place to start.
Strange Apparitions - a trade Paperback collecting a run from the 1970s that is among the best of Silver Age tales.
Early arcs from The Legends of the Dark Knight, as mentioned above - Prey is very good, Shaman's okay. The early Tim Sale /Jeph Loeb stuff was golden, especially their Halloween specials, which are collected in a TPB, as well as Blades. Faces by Matt Wagner is superior too. These are material from the early 90s, following the revisions of Batman that came from Miller and the first Burton film. A great one-shot from this era is Storm.
If you can get your hands on Dark Knight, Dark City, also from the 90s - a four-issue arc under the Batman title, it's one of the best Batman stories ever told.
Personally I thought Loeb's writing went off the rails with later stuff such as The Long Halloween and Dark Victory, but they are well-loved by others and very atmospheric, so if you don't mind a rather nonsensical plot and a Bruce Wayne who is kind of a zombie - go for them.
For stuff more in continuity now, the Cataclysm/ No Man's Land TPBs (there are 5 or 6 in all) are really quite good. More Batman family than Batman though, with lots of plot lines involving Nigthwing, Oracle, Robin, Batgirl and Huntress. Just about all the villains make appearances at one point or another.
Other not to be missed material is The Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum.
After you've checked out all this - then read Dark Knight Returns for a very good retirment tale.

Corollary to Batman, but some of the best comics material ever put out by Dc, is Gotham Central. HIGHLY recommended - it tells stories of Gotham cops, and is entirely brilliant. I got the whole series from the library, and you should definitely check for a lot of these books there if you don't want to invest. They'll have many of the titles mentioned.

I'm less familiar with Superman, but a couple things to be sure to read are Birthright, a lovely retelling of the origin and early years. And, while I think it's a tad overrated, Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow is a retirement tale attached to the Silver Age. Another good TPB is No Limits, which is a kind of restart after a long, long arc that took things far from the basic Superman set up. It's after Lois and Clark get married so is a nice introduction to the new era of Superman.

Throw in JLA: New World Order, Tower of Babel and League of One first to get a sense of the larger universe and the heroes working in teams.

When done with all this, read Kingdom Come.

 

[Starbreaker]

Go back to the beginning with the old Detective comics for Batman. They're very good.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

I agree with others here on what to read first, but for the OP to avoid Miller's "The Dark Knight Returns" in perpetuity would be a disservice. Read it, but like others have said, wait till you're familiar with the players before going there. It's worth the wait!

 

[byron lomax]

Early arcs from The Legends of the Dark Knight, as mentioned above - Prey is very good, Shaman's okay. The early Tim Sale /Jeph Loeb stuff was golden, especially their Halloween specials, which are collected in a TPB, as well as Blades. Faces by Matt Wagner is superior too. These are material from the early 90s, following the revisions of Batman that came from Miller and the first Burton film. A great one-shot from this era is Storm.
If you can get your hands on Dark Knight, Dark City, also from the 90s - a four-issue arc under the Batman title, it's one of the best Batman stories ever told.

Oh, how I love Milligan's Dark Knight, Dark City - it's such a brilliant story, great use of the Riddler's gimmick and god is he downright scary. But the story is actually three parts long, not four. I'd give my left foot for a trade of that.

And on the subject of great uncollected Batman, the Alan Grant/Norm Breyfogle run on Detective in the late 80s - Scarface, Anarky, Cornelius Stirk, the Corrosive Man, all four Clayfaces teaming up, Penguin faking his own death, the Ratcatcher - fantastic stuff! Their switch over to the Batman title in the early 90s wasn't quite as stellar, but the writing was still damn good - check out "Requiem for a Killer", a very moving story which showed Killer Croc's human side.

Also, the short Milligan/Aparo run of creepy stories on Detective, Puckett/Parobeck on the Batman Adventures comics, and Rucka/Martinborough on Detective - some of the run is on the "Evoluton" trade, but most of it isn't. So many great Batman stories are hard to track down!

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Early arcs from The Legends of the Dark Knight, as mentioned above - Prey is very good, Shaman's okay. The early Tim Sale /Jeph Loeb stuff was golden, especially their Halloween specials, which are collected in a TPB, as well as Blades. Faces by Matt Wagner is superior too. These are material from the early 90s, following the revisions of Batman that came from Miller and the first Burton film. A great one-shot from this era is Storm.
If you can get your hands on Dark Knight, Dark City, also from the 90s - a four-issue arc under the Batman title, it's one of the best Batman stories ever told.

Oh, how I love Milligan's Dark Knight, Dark City - it's such a brilliant story, great use of the Riddler's gimmick and god is he downright scary. But the story is actually three parts long, not four. I'd give my left foot for a trade of that.

And on the subject of great uncollected Batman, the Alan Grant/Norm Breyfogle run on Detective in the late 80s - Scarface, Anarky, Cornelius Stirk, the Corrosive Man, all four Clayfaces teaming up, Penguin faking his own death, the Ratcatcher - fantastic stuff! Their switch over to the Batman title in the early 90s wasn't quite as stellar, but the writing was still damn good - check out "Requiem for a Killer", a very moving story which showed Killer Croc's human side.

Also, the short Milligan/Aparo run of creepy stories on Detective, Puckett/Parobeck on the Batman Adventures comics, and Rucka/Martinborough on Detective - some of the run is on the "Evoluton" trade, but most of it isn't. So many great Batman stories are hard to track down!

So true - it's bizarre some of the stuff that has been collected versus really superior tales that haven't been.

You are quite right about Dark Knight, Dark City - Batman #452- 454, three issues. Luckily I still have my original printings of that one. Very high re-readability.

 

[Silvercrest]

If you have an interest in Batman's training and background, I recommend the story Blind Justice. It's not frequently cited as one of the Batman classics but it's a great, great story.

Is that the one with Dr. Kenneth Harbinger, or am I thinking of something else?

 

[Nerys Myk]

So I've never read any DC Comics, but I want to experience, in some short form, the story of Batman and Superman. From what I've gathered Frank Miller's continuity tells the story of Batman from Year One until his death. Is this correct?

Also, if I were to want to assume All-Star Superman takes place in this same continuity, what other stand alone Superman series could I place with it to show the story of Superman from birth until death or retirement?

Thanks for your help in advance.

The majority of Batman and Superman (like most superheroes) stories take place in the "middle." Origins crop up form time to time, but don't always agree. Same for endings. I don't think there is any continuity that really tells the story from beginning to end.

Though John Byrne's Superman & Batman: Generations is a novel attempt at such a story.

 

[byron lomax]

Is that the one with Dr. Kenneth Harbinger, or am I thinking of something else?

Yes, that's right, it's the story which features Dr Harbinger, Henri Ducard, the Kanes and the "Bonecrusher". Some find the sci-fi aspects of the story too far-fetched, but they don't bother me. Sci-fi elements can work well in Batman, at least when they're used right (the same goes for the supernatural).