I swear that's an NX class they're flying in the new trailer!

[eyeresist]

No, the Defiant was Defiant class, as was even made clear in the episode Dogs of War when the new Defiant shows up and Ezri comments "I didn't know we were getting another Defiant class ship." If a ship is "NX class" it resembles the NX-01, just like Columbia and the MU's Avenger. Even the article you linked makes very clear in its first paragraph, what BillJ says in the following post.

Not wanting to get too fiddly with semantics, but NX is a classification for an experimental ship, which is arguably different from "NX class":

All the other ships on the Memory Alpha list were prototypes. A prototype is an NX-class ship; all ships subsequently based on that model get classed by the name of the prototype ship (usually). The Defiant was so radically overhauled from its original configuration that it was classed as NX; later ships based on the Defiant were Defiant-class. (The Defiant couldn't be called Defiant-class anymore than Christ could be called a Christian, if you see what I mean.)

The NX ships from ENT are an anomaly in the classification scheme. One could argue that as they represented Earth's first "official" venture into space, they may have been part of an "NX fleet" project, i.e. the whole fleet was considered to be a prototype.

 

[BillJ]

The NX ships from ENT are an anomaly in the classification scheme. One could argue that as they represented Earth's first "official" venture into space, they may have been part of an "NX fleet" project, i.e. the whole fleet was considered to be a prototype.

Pretty sure the NX-01 plaque even identifies it as "NX Class".

Or, maybe not...

 

[BillJ]

All the other ships on the Memory Alpha list were prototypes. A prototype is an NX-class ship; all ships subsequently based on that model get classed by the name of the prototype ship (usually). The Defiant was so radically overhauled from its original configuration that it was classed as NX; later ships based on the Defiant were Defiant-class. (The Defiant couldn't be called Defiant-class anymore than Christ could be called a Christian, if you see what I mean.)

So you're saying that all first ships of a given class are part of the "NX-Class"? Not sure that makes much sense, honestly. The Excelsior became the NCC-2000 once her testing phase was over. Even if that was the case, it wouldn't be applicable to Earth Starfleet prior to the formation of the Federation.

 

[The Wormhole]

All the other ships on the Memory Alpha list were prototypes.

Nope. The Memory Alpha list includes Columbia, Avenger, and the unnamed NX-03 and NX-04, none of which were prototypes.

The Defiant was so radically overhauled from its original configuration that it was classed as NX; later ships based on the Defiant were Defiant-class. (The Defiant couldn't be called Defiant-class anymore than Christ could be called a Christian, if you see what I mean.)

But it was called Defiant class, in Dogs of War Ezri refers to the Sao Paulo as "another Defiant class ship." In order for the Sao Paulo to be another Defiant class, the Defiant itself had to also be Defiant class. Also, the Sao Paulo had an NCC registry which was changed to NX-74205 when it was renamed Defiant.

The NX ships from ENT are an anomaly in the classification scheme. One could argue that as they represented Earth's first "official" venture into space, they may have been part of an "NX fleet" project, i.e. the whole fleet was considered to be a prototype.

Well, no the intent was that Earth Starfleet used letters for their starship classes, I remember somewhere that the Intrepid was meant to be NY class or something.

Pretty sure the NX-01 plaque even identifies it as "NX Class".

Or, maybe not...

I don't think the dedication plaque said that, however the term "NX class" was used several times in dialogue throughout Enterprise:
-In Fortunate Son, Mayweather mentions to his freighter buddy that Starfleet has three more NX class ship planned. Later in the episode Archer tells the Nausicans his ship is NX class and soon there will be more of them in space.
-In E-Squared when the other NX-01 is detected, T'Pol identifies it from scans as "Starfleet NX class."
-In Home Archer refers to Captain Jeffries, who he says was the lead designer of the NX class.

 

[eyeresist]

All the other ships on the Memory Alpha list were prototypes.

Nope. The Memory Alpha list includes Columbia, Avenger, and the unnamed NX-03 and NX-04, none of which were prototypes.

The Avenger was from the MU, so doesn't count. The others I dealt with when discussing the anomaly of ENT's NX class.

But it was called Defiant class, in Dogs of War Ezri refers to the Sao Paulo as "another Defiant class ship." In order for the Sao Paulo to be another Defiant class, the Defiant itself had to also be Defiant class.

This is that semantic fiddlyness I refered to earlier. It would sound very silly to say "The Defiant is Defiant class". Instead you would say "The Defiant is the prototype of the Defiant class."

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

-In Home Archer refers to Captain Jeffries, who he says was the lead designer of the NX class.

The guy is the lead designer of the first Warp 5 ship, and he only get tubes named after him?

 

[TheFlutteringHorde]

The guy is the lead designer of the first Warp 5 ship, and he only get tubes named after him?

Maybe the Franklin will set record straight, and be a member of the Jefferies-class

 

[Timo]

If we are to put this into real world context, then we could argue that UE Starfleet is taking all its cues from USN practices.

I mean, the writers probably don't do that, not really, not consistently. But Starfleet would be somewhat likely to. And in that case, the "NX class" thing would be pretty clear-cut:

1) Every ship design gets called a "class" and is named after the first ship commissioned, with few and minor exceptions (sometimes it's the first ship launched, or whatnot). Hence, Archer flies the Enterprise class of starships. A real world, USN counterpart example might be the "Ticonderoga class" of anti-aircraft cruisers.

2) Every ship gets a pennant code reflecting her mission. Several designs may perform the same mission. However, here Starfleet explicitly has never operated a deep space explorer before. Hence, Archer flies an NX class vessel, and prides himself on the fact that his class is the only NX class in Starfleet, even if there are other individual ships in this particular NX class. A real world, USN counterpart example would be as above - the Ticonderoga was the first "CG class" vessel in the USN for a long time, and also the first-ever "AEGIS class" vessel (a designation deriving from her pathfinding fire control system).

3) Every ship also falls on a broader category that may encompass several parallel mission classes. Say, there are many sorts of destroyers, some optimized for anti-aircraft work, some for anti-submarine, others for shore bombardment jobs. Multimission capability is common, but emphasis may be placed on some mission over the others. Hence, Archer flies a starship class vessel, or perhaps a cruiser class vessel. A real world, USN counterpart example might indeed be "cruiser class", as although it's not a broad category there nowadays, it used to be common yet encompassing ships with highly dissimilar capabilities.

The three ways to spell out the class of NX-01 are in no contradiction with each other, and all derive from real world practices. There are further ways, too, such as nicknames ("688 class" for a distinct type of nuclear attack submarine the first of which happened to have the registry SSN-688) or thematic names ("County class" for a class of Royal Navy ships named after counties, there being no "HMS County"). Heck, for all we know, this "starship class" thing that pops up now and then in connection with Kirk's ship may be of the latter sort - the NCC-1701 and her sisters are thematically named after past starships!

Of the above, only the second thing would fail to apply to other hero ships, from the UFP era. Both because the Starfleet of the UFP doesn't spell out the mission class in the registry, but uses the generic NCC there to merely denote "this is a Starfleet vessel" and thus separate the ship from civilian counterparts with letters like NSP or NTD - and because there's little or nothing distinct about the missions of later starships...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[starburst]

Hmh? Both "The Cage" and "Where No Man" show a three-color uniform scheme. It's just that the colors aren't red, gold and blue there, but sort-of-light-tan, sort-of-dark-tan and blue. But it's not as if the TNG colors would be the same as in TOS or ENT, either, only similar'ish.

I had a scan through some screencaps from the Cage (admittedly not many) and even though I remember there being a different shade in the mustard coloured uniforms I couldn't find an example though thinking about it now it may have been on the second pilot. I always put the colour difference down to them being made out of materials from different suppliers or production batches which would account for an inconsistent colour (real world vs in universe) has there ever been anything documented to reflect that they were two subtle colours to show different departments?

I seem to remember some of the TNG and DS9/Voyager uniforms being slightly different shades too in the golds (and possibly the blues) which I again put down to materials, production times, wash cycles etc.

Pretty sure the NX-01 plaque even identifies it as "NX Class".

Or, maybe not...

No it just lists her space frame number as NX but there is enough dialog during the series which cements the ship and her sisters as the NX-Class (and the final part of the NX/Warp 5 Project with the NX-Alpha etc)

The Avenger was from the MU, so doesn't count. The others I dealt with when discussing the anomaly of ENT's NX class.

Its an anomaly only because the Earth Starfleet and the Federation Starfleet are different agencies and do things differently even if the later day organisation is based on the earlier one.

This is that semantic fiddlyness I refered to earlier. It would sound very silly to say "The Defiant is Defiant class". Instead you would say "The Defiant is the prototype of the Defiant class."

The Defiant is the prototype of the Defiant class just as the Excelsior is of hers, so do you mean to say that the Excelsior isn't an Excelsior class ship? Or the Prometheus a Prometheus class? It might sound odd to say but as her dedication plaque says the Defiant is the "first Starship of her class" I think your quibbling over it because of the double use of the name here... Remove the names of the ships featured on screen and the Defiant class becomes hull numbers;

• NX-74205 (Prototype - USS Defiant)
• NCC-74210 (USS Valiant)
• NCC-75633 (USS Sao Paulo)

To go back to the original intent of the thread, no the Franklin is not an NX (ala NX-01 Enterprise or NX-02 Columbia) class starship but something which from certain angles resembles one in silhouette.

 

[BillJ]

The others I dealt with when discussing the anomaly of ENT's NX class.

There is no anomaly because we're dealing with two distinct entities that use "NX" in distinct ways. One used it to identify a class of starship, the other uses it to identify prototype starships.

 

[Timo]

...even though I remember there being a different shade in the mustard coloured uniforms I couldn't find an example...

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/0x00/thecage058.jpg

That's deliberate, and discernible even through 1960s color TV sets. It's also realistic for military garb, but we're spoiled with the clownish colors of TOS into thinking that the differences ought to be greater. Such as, say, for aircraft carrier deck crews, although the role of colors there and in TOS is quite dissimilar.

...has there ever been anything documented to reflect that they were two subtle colours to show different departments?

There has never been any onscreen mention that colors would relate to departments at all. Quite to the contrary, all the shows make mention of more than three departments, while only the movies feature more than three colors.

Backstage assumptions may vary from show to show. But what's obvious from "The Cage" is that the Costuming Department delivered three distinct colors and the director was fine with it!

I seem to remember some of the TNG and DS9/Voyager uniforms being slightly different shades too in the golds (and possibly the blues) which I again put down to materials, production times, wash cycles etc.

That's fine for the sixth year of a TV show. "The Cage" was fresh from the oven, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[starburst]

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/0x00/thecage058.jpg

That's deliberate, and discernible even through 1960s color TV sets. It's also realistic for military garb, but we're spoiled with the clownish colors of TOS into thinking that the differences ought to be greater. Such as, say, for aircraft carrier deck crews, although the role of colors there and in TOS is quite dissimilar.

Thanks for the screenshot, thats pretty much what I had from memory of the colour difference and I agree with you thats intentional especially as Pike's uniform has the Command insignia while the 2 crewman he is talking to have the Engineering/Security one. As they along with Colt have this combination while Number One shares the same coloured tunic and insignia patch as Pike we could infer that they are essentially would have been wearing the series red uniforms.

Tyler kinda throws a spanner as he is wearing the services patch but his tunic looks the much darker mustard colour but its not the last time they would mix up uniform colours etc. This is partly why I thought that they may have simply made tunics from different tunics as 3 of what could have been the regulars (Pike, Number One, Tyler) could have been wearing the "hero" level tunic while the rest a cheaper background costume, after talking with you I am leaning towards your way of thinking.

 

[The Wormhole]

There is no anomaly because we're dealing with two distinct entities that use "NX" in distinct ways. One used it to identify a class of starship, the other uses it to identify prototype starships.

Which, as I pointed out earlier, the Memory Alpha article eyeresist linked to even spells that out:

NX was a two-letter prefix first used by the United Earth Starfleet for their NX-class starships in the mid-22nd century. (ENT: "Broken Bow", "Fortunate Son"). After the founding of the United Federation of Planets in 2161, this prefix was used for experimental and prototype starship designs.

You see, it's right there, before the Federation was formed, NX was a starship class. After the Federation was formed, it was used for experimental registries.

 

[USS Triumphant]

You're obviously and canonically correct.

It's still really dumb, though. "NX-Class" is just goofy - it'd be like the US Navy naming a whole class of ships "Experimental-Class" even knowing that the ships would continue to carry that class name into their regular service. Also, where is the U.S.S. NX?

 

[Ovation]

It's almost as if it were happening in a fictional universe where things are not entirely analogous to the real world.

 

[The Wormhole]

You're obviously and canonically correct.

It's still really dumb, though. "NX-Class" is just goofy - it'd be like the US Navy naming a whole class of ships "Experimental-Class" even knowing that the ships would continue to carry that class name into their regular service. Also, where is the U.S.S. NX?

Although there's nothing canonical to back this up, some have suggested Earth Starfleet used letter designations for their starship classes, with it being alleged the Intrepid was NY class. Canon seems to be against this idea, Trip mentions a Neptune class in Singularity and being an older type of ship, which has the same Captain's Chair as the NX.

According to Memory Alpha's page for the NX class Enterprise art department operated under the belief the NX-01 was meant to be "Enterprise class" until the script for Fortunate Son identified it as NX class, and no explanation was provided them by the writers for this.

 

[USS Triumphant]

According to Memory Alpha's page for the NX class Enterprise art department operated under the belief the NX-01 was meant to be "Enterprise class"

Only logical, since the first ship of a class is pretty much always named the same as the class. The writers were idjits.

 

[BillJ]

It's still really dumb, though. "NX-Class" is just goofy - it'd be like the US Navy naming a whole class of ships "Experimental-Class" even knowing that the ships would continue to carry that class name into their regular service. Also, where is the U.S.S. NX?

But it does fit a naming scheme that has popped up before in Star Trek...

MENDEZ: Inspection tour of a cadet vessel. Old Class J starship. One of the baffle plates ruptured.

I doubt there's a "USS J" traveling the space lanes.

You're also working under the assumption "NX" means Experimental Class. Earth Starfleet and those involved in the design process could've simply picked the name because it sounded cool. As the name of the project to develop the ships, it could've stuck as the class name, as well.

The writers were idjits.

Is that the case in every navy, where the first ship is the class ship?

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

Is that the case in every navy, where the first ship is the class ship?

How many years do you have to search?

One thing I noticed during a short search, the Ticonderoga class lead ship USS Ticonderoga is stricken/to be scrapped, so the class lead isn't active. I suppose that's bound to happen, since the first ship built is the class name ship and would be the oldest.

 

[USS Triumphant]

How many years do you have to search?

I started to try to research this but quickly realized that A. it would take forever, and B. I really felt like it was more on Billj to find the information to refute me, since he took issue with it, than it was on me to back up something I was primarily saying just to paraphrase Bobby Singer on the intarwebz, anyway. Or at least, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.