I rmember when Star Trek II wasn't out yet

[Sir Rhosis]

^^^He has a bookshelf in his hut on Ceti Alpha Whatever, and though I don't see a copy of the novel DANGEROUS LIAISONS, I just assumed it was part of his collection.

Sir Rhosis

http://www.criticalcommons.org/Members/ebreilly/clips/wrath-of-khan-khans-bookcase/thumbnailImage

 

[Nyotarules]

What about when Khan quotes the Klingon proverb about "Revenge is a dish, best served cold". Where did he hear that? He was hibernating for 2-3 centuries and then he and his group were left on Ceti Alpha V. I guess you could get around it by saying he read it when he was on the Enterprise, or Kirk gave them some stuff to read along with any supplies he might have given them when he stranded them there.

yeah it was in a Klingon bestseller but he might have misread it I think the original saying is 'Revenge is a dish best served with cod'

 

[mb22]

The line is also in the book The Godfather.
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/revenge-is-a-dish-best-served-cold.html

 

[Metryq]

1. The geopolitical situation changed in the last fifteen years.

The Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Klingon Empire was imposed by the Organians.

 

[Kor]

The Neutral Zone between the Federation and the Klingon Empire was imposed by the Organians.

Technically, that wasn't explicitly stated in TOS or the movies. It can be inferred that there is a neutral area of space between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and that if either party sets their sights on a planet within that area, then "one side or the other must prove it can develop the planet most efficiently" as Chekov said in The Trouble With Tribbles.

By the time of the movies, the situation had changed so that the specific term "The Neutral Zone" was used for the area of neutral space, and that any entry into that zone was now in violation of treaty. In TOS, that was the situation with the Romulans.

Kor

 

[Greg Cox]

^ I think the previous posters may be referring to when Khan is trying to raise his people on the intercom, after Kirk orders the gas released. From the same transcript site, the names actually mentioned were:

Yep. That's the bit I was thinking of. And "Rodriguez! Ling! McPherson!" sure sounds like a deliberate, almost ham-handed attempt to get across the idea that Khan's followers represented multiple nationalities.

As for how Khan knows a Klingon proverb . . . well, he was married to a Starfleet historian. One assumes that he and Marla spent some time talking about the history of the Alpha Quadrant during those long nights on Ceti Alpha V . . . . before she met her tragic end, that is. And Khan would naturally be interested in learning more about a race of warriors and conquerors

 

[Kor]

It's a human saying, anyway. Someone like Khan with a superior intellect, and presumably well-read, already would have known it back in the 20th century.

Kor

 

[Noname Given]

Technically, that wasn't explicitly stated in TOS or the movies. It can be inferred that there is a neutral area of space between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and that if either party sets their sights on a planet within that area, then "one side or the other must prove it can develop the planet most efficiently" as Chekov said in The Trouble With Tribbles.

By the time of the movies, the situation had changed so that the specific term "The Neutral Zone" was used for the area of neutral space, and that any entry into that zone was now in violation of treaty. In TOS, that was the situation with the Romulans.

Kor

Yep - The Organian Peace treaty said:
- No hostilities in the zone by either side would be tolerated. (from 'Errand of Mercy')
- For contested planets one side or the other would need to show it's ability to better develop the planet 'efficietly'.

Just entering the Zone was/should not be considered a treaty violation.

Yet, as soon as the 1701 crosses the zone border in STII:TWoK, Spock says:

Mister Spock: "We are now in violation of treaty Captain."

And then three klingon Katanga cruisers show up and start damaging the 1701 (which IS a clear violation of the Organian Peace Treaty as described in "Errand of Mercy" and "The Trouble With Tribbles".)

So, either the script writer got confused - because as others have said, the whole 'Neutral Zone' situation came across more like the setup for the Federation/Romulan Neutral Zone (although cloaked Romulan ships luring a Federation ship into an ambush as depicted could be considered a violation/act of war against the Federation from the Romulans.)

But still, the scenario as presented in the film doesn't mesh with ST canon.

 

[Greg Cox]

But still, the scenario as presented in the film doesn't mesh with ST canon.

Unless, of course, the political situation changed over the course of fifteen years or so, and the Treaty evolved over time. There's no reason to assume that Federation-Klingon relations have been frozen in stasis since Kirk's famous five-year-mission. Or even that the Organians are still a factor anymore. The time gap between the TV show and the movies provides plenty of wiggle room where the "canon" is concerned.

Spock just mentions a "treaty," not "The Organian Peace Treaty, which has remained inviolate for over a decade now . . .."

I mean, in the real world, it's not as though no treaties or international relations underwent significant changes between 1969 and 1982.

 

[Nebusj]

Unless, of course, the political situation changed over the course of fifteen years or so, and the Treaty evolved over time. There's no reason to assume that Federation-Klingon relations have been frozen in stasis since Kirk's famous five-year-mission. Or even that the Organians are still a factor anymore. The time gap between the TV show and the movies provides plenty of wiggle room where the "canon" is concerned.

Also, nobody says they're entering a Klingon Neutral Zone. They just find Klingons in what might well be the Romulan Neutral Zone. Should the Klingons not be there? File a complaint with the Romulan Coast Guard, if you get out of the current quite unfair situation.

 

[Greg Cox]

We honestly have no idea whatever happened to the Organians. Certainly, we never see them intervene in corporeal affairs again, in any of the post-TOS movies or TV series.

My pet theory? At first, in the years after "Errand of Mercy," neither the Federation or the Klingons really knew how hands-on the Organians were going to be when it came to enforcing the truce, so the possibility of the Organians intervening acted as a deterrent, but as years went by and the Organians kept to themselves, on a higher plane of existence,the Klingons started pushing the envelope . . . while carefully steering clear of Organia, of course.

Which brings us to their aggressive behavior in their Kobyashi Maru simulation. (And the fact that that was just a hypothetical training exercise also provides a bit of wiggle room.)

 

[Poltargyst]

So far I'm finding these "plot holes" in WoK rather nit-picky, and I'm someone who regularly complains about continuity.

 

[Avro Arrow]

^^^He has a bookshelf in his hut on Ceti Alpha Whatever, and though I don't see a copy of the novel DANGEROUS LIAISONS, I just assumed it was part of his collection.

Sir Rhosis

http://www.criticalcommons.org/Members/ebreilly/clips/wrath-of-khan-khans-bookcase/thumbnailImage

"Statute Regulating [something?] Commerce"? Those Augments sure know how to have fun!

(And for some reason, discovering that Khan's group took a copy of the "Holy Bible" surprises me somewhat, although maybe it shouldn't?)

 

[JonnyQuest037]

We honestly have no idea whatever happened to the Organians. Certainly, we never see them intervene in corporeal affairs again, in any of the post-TOS movies or TV series.

I think the first four issues of DC's 1980s comic book series addresses that question quite nicely, too.

 

[Captain Rob]

Anyone mention that Khan mispronounced the name of his Number One guy? Joachim.
In TOS when he gets out of deep freeze Khan calls him Jo-a-kim. He's the guy that slaps Uhura. Big and tall with black hair.
But in TWoK Khan calls him Wa-keem. And he has blonde hair. And a tan.
Where and how on a devastated desert planet does a guy maintain a supply of hair coloring?

 

[Vger23]

Everything about the Klingons in the Kobayashi Maru screams Romulan: Neutral Zone, no prisoners, and Gamma Hydra. Dismiss it if you want to play headcanon, but it's obvious they flipped species without changing the particulars.

I always figured that the original intent was to use Romulans here...but budget constraints necessitated the use of TMP stock footage, and they just scratched the work out and wrote "Klingons" in the script to avoid needing to re-tool the entire concept.

 

[Poltargyst]

Anyone mention that Khan mispronounced the name of his Number One guy? Joachim.
In TOS when he gets out of deep freeze Khan calls him Jo-a-kim. He's the guy that slaps Uhura. Big and tall with black hair.
But in TWoK Khan calls him Wa-keem. And he has blonde hair. And a tan.
Where and how on a devastated desert planet does a guy maintain a supply of hair coloring?

Wait, that's supposed to be the same guy?

 

[Captain Rob]

"Space Seed" was just on MeTV a few weeks ago and I freeze-framed the credits. And the name is spelled the same in the episode and the movie. I think that the guy that played him in the movie had recently been on several TV shows and was supposed to be a up-and-comer.

 

[Greg Cox]

It's unclear whether "Joaquin" (the tv show) and "Joachim" (the movie) are supposed to be the same guy. I once spoke with Judson Scott, who played Joachim in the movie, and he was quite convinced that his character was supposed to be Khan's son, which is how he played him.

In my novel, I split the difference and made Joachim the son of the original Joaquin, whom Khan raised as his own after the first Joaquin died.

 

[Poltargyst]

He seems way too young to be the same guy given how much Khan aged.