I rmember when Star Trek II wasn't out yet

[Terok Nor]

Given he's a genetically engineered human Joaquin from TWOK could easily be the son of one of the original Botany Bay crew. Sure, he doesn't look 15 but we don't know the specifics of what type of genetic engineering was used on Khan and his crew. All the younger crew members could be the offspring of deceased original crew members. It never came up in the movie so it's up in the air.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

"Space Seed" was just on MeTV a few weeks ago and I freeze-framed the credits. And the name is spelled the same in the episode and the movie. I think that the guy that played him in the movie had recently been on several TV shows and was supposed to be a up-and-comer.

Yeah, he had just done a pilot called "The Phoenix" that I don't think went to series.

Correction: It did go to series, but only lasted 5 weeks.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah, he had just done a pilot called "The Phoenix" that I don't think went to series.

Correction: It did go to series, but only lasted 5 weeks.

Believe it or not, I actually attended a "Phoenix" convention in Tacoma, Washington, back in the mid-eighties. Judson Scott was the Guest of the Honor and plenty of Phoenix-themed fan art and fiction was on display.

Which pretty much proves that no sci-fi show is so obscure that it doesn't have its own cult following.

 

[Avro Arrow]

I always figured that the original intent was to use Romulans here...but budget constraints necessitated the use of TMP stock footage, and they just scratched the work out and wrote "Klingons" in the script to avoid needing to re-tool the entire concept.

Makes you wonder why they bothered changing the name, though. It's not like the Romulans had never used Klingon ships before.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

I always figured that the original intent was to use Romulans here...but budget constraints necessitated the use of TMP stock footage, and they just scratched the work out and wrote "Klingons" in the script to avoid needing to re-tool the entire concept.

I think it was more the reverse. They had the special effects footage from TMP and the wrote the Kobayashi Maru scenario to fit it and get more bang for their buck. I'm sure they decided to say they were Klingon ships since they were identified as Klingons in the first movie, and those were the best-known bad guys from TOS.

As to why the Klingons suddenly had a Neutral Zone of their own, I'm guessing either someone got mixed up, or else they just decided that "Neutral Zone" was a good, self-explanatory term to use.

"Space Seed" was just on MeTV a few weeks ago and I freeze-framed the credits. And the name is spelled the same in the episode and the movie. I think that the guy that played him in the movie had recently been on several TV shows and was supposed to be a up-and-comer.

Yeah, apparently Judson Scott's representation was upset at the level of his billing in TWOK, and demanded that his credit be removed if he didn't get higher billing. Obviously, that tactic backfired and Scott ended up getting no billing at all in a hit movie. I'm sure his career took a hit after that.

 

[Greg Cox]

He seems way too young to be the same guy given how much Khan aged.

Given he's a genetically engineered human Joaquin from TWOK could easily be the son of one of the original Botany Bay crew. Sure, he doesn't look 15 but we don't know the specifics of what type of genetic engineering was used on Khan and his crew. All the younger crew members could be the offspring of deceased original crew members. It never came up in the movie so it's up in the air.[/QUOTE

I think it was more the reverse. They had the special effects footage from TMP and the wrote the Kobayashi Maru scenario to fit it and get more bang for their buck. I'm sure they decided to say they were Klingon ships since they were identified as Klingons in the first movie, and those were the best-known bad guys from TOS.

As to why the Klingons suddenly had a Neutral Zone of their own, I'm guessing either someone got mixed up, or else they just decided that "Neutral Zone" was a good, self-explanatory term to use.


Yeah, apparently Judson Scott's representation was upset at the level of his billing in TWOK, and demanded that his credit be removed if he didn't get higher billing. Obviously, that tactic backfired and Scott ended up getting no billing at all in a hit movie. I'm sure his career took a hit after that.

He still pops up occasionally in genre shows. I seem to recall he played a vampire in the first BLADE movie, although, of course, that was some time ago. I ran into him again at Shore Leave convention a few years back where we talked about Joachim a bit . . ..

 

[Drone]

We honestly have no idea whatever happened to the Organians. Certainly, we never see them intervene in corporeal affairs again, in any of the post-TOS movies or TV series.

My pet theory? At first, in the years after "Errand of Mercy," neither the Federation or the Klingons really knew how hands-on the Organians were going to be when it came to enforcing the truce, so the possibility of the Organians intervening acted as a deterrent, but as years went by and the Organians kept to themselves, on a higher plane of existence,the Klingons started pushing the envelope . . . while carefully steering clear of Organia, of course.

Which brings us to their aggressive behavior in their Kobyashi Maru simulation. (And the fact that that was just a hypothetical training exercise also provides a bit of wiggle room.)

It's simply supposition of course, but even without them making another actual appearance, doesn't it seem unlikely that this race who took such pains to basically push along the two combatants to the position from which they could launch their preemptive action that humbled both, would just blithely assume that said action would not require even occasional monitoring? After all, they were very serious regarding the importance they seemed to place on forcing the cessation of hostilities, and is there any reason to think they retreated to Exosia or some other such Fortress of Solitude from which they wouldn't have the ability to easily be aware of any shenanigans that either party might initiate?

I guess one could make the argument that the unpleasant taste in their mouths, from having to deal with these primitive organics, was so strong that after executing their coup, they simply couldn't take being around either for some hundreds or even a thousand years (Observer Effect reference), but I just don't get the sense that they would be likely to ignore discharging their responsibilities, as they likely saw them, without some extraordinary reason, if at all.

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

I never thought of the Organians as very interested in what the Klingons and the Federation did as long as they didn't do it near their planet. But maybe I'm still reacting to the extreme level James Blish took their interference to in Spock Must Die!

 

[Vger23]

Makes you wonder why they bothered changing the name, though. It's not like the Romulans had never used Klingon ships before.

That is an excellent point!

 

[Greg Cox]

On the other hand, the Organians DO say that even conversing with primitive creatures such as ourselves is extremely painful to them, so I can't imagine that they were actively involved in negotiating the terms of the treaty or taking a hands-on role in enforcing it. They let us know that they were up there on a higher plane, ready to intervene if we got out of line again, but I'm not sure they considered that they had a "responsibility" to play an active role in corporeal affairs. I figure the Organian Peace Treaty was named after them, but not actually worked out them. The Organians pushed both combatants to sit down at the bargaining table, but that's about it . ..

My impression is that they pretty much wanted nothing to do with lesser life-forms and we're only stirred to act when our squabbling intruded on their own domain. It was like having two warring tribes of ants infesting your house; you try to separate them in a humane way, but you have better things to do than play referee to a bunch of insects for the next hundred years or so.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yeah, he had just done a pilot called "The Phoenix" that I don't think went to series.

Correction: It did go to series, but only lasted 5 weeks.

Speaking of "The Phoenix," Moonstone just published a Kolchak/Phoenix crossover graphic novel: KOLCHAK: THE PHOENIX RISES. Really.

http://moonstonebooks.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=1165

 

[BoredShipCapt'n]

Really, but unreally.

 

[Greg Cox]

Really, but unreally.

No genre show is so obscure that it doesn't have devoted fan following . . . .

So when are they bringing back CLEOPATRA 2525 again?

 

[Captain Rob]

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I hear it's coming back with a reboot of "Team Knight Rider".
Just kidding. That's my early April Fool's joke.

 

[johnnybear]

You forgot:
Khan:" 200 years ago...I was a prince.."
(Um, yeah, closer to 300, but it is in keeping with the loose canon error in the original 'Space Seed" I suppose.)
or that ALL of Khan's followers are blonde/blue-eyed - and not as multi-ethnic as they appeared in the 'Space Seed' scene where Khan is greeting them as they come out of Cryo.

But still if ANY other modern Star Trek film today made an error like the Chekov/Khan one in STII:TWoK, there would be a group of Star Trek fans screaming it was evidence "those in charge" don't understand/know/care about Star Trek, etc.

Maybe they're just the ones that survived?
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Everything about the Klingons in the Kobayashi Maru screams Romulan: Neutral Zone, no prisoners, and Gamma Hydra. Dismiss it if you want to play headcanon, but it's obvious they flipped species without changing the particulars.

Like it's been said, Klingons are better known by the average cinema goer than The Romulans were back in the 80s plus they had to keep The Klingon neutral zone for continuity in The Undiscovered Country!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

According to the stardates of "Space Seed" and "Catspaw" Chekov was on the Enterprise when Khan took it over. It's a minor gripe anyway. Space Seed was late in Season 1 and Chekov appeared at the start of Season 2. He could easily have been onboard with Khan.

Maybe Ensign Chekov joined on their last trip to a starbase before this episode occurred! Still ridiculous though as even if he was aboard how could Khan know every name of any passing crewman? But then again he had superior ability and probably learnt everyone's name from the files he was reading in sickbay!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Listen to the names Khan calls out when speaking to them. That group was supposed to contain Augments from all over the globe (circa 1996.)

I recall a McPherson, Ramirez and of course Joachim!
JB

 

[johnnybear]

What about when Khan quotes the Klingon proverb about "Revenge is a dish, best served cold". Where did he hear that? He was hibernating for 2-3 centuries and then he and his group were left on Ceti Alpha V. I guess you could get around it by saying he read it when he was on the Enterprise, or Kirk gave them some stuff to read along with any supplies he might have given them when he stranded them there.

Strange that if Klingons had landed on Ceti Alpha or had communicated with Khan that they didn't lift him and his people off the place before the cataclysm! Maybe Khan had been listening to Klingon radio FM?
JB

 

[johnnybear]

Technically, that wasn't explicitly stated in TOS or the movies. It can be inferred that there is a neutral area of space between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, and that if either party sets their sights on a planet within that area, then "one side or the other must prove it can develop the planet most efficiently" as Chekov said in The Trouble With Tribbles.

By the time of the movies, the situation had changed so that the specific term "The Neutral Zone" was used for the area of neutral space, and that any entry into that zone was now in violation of treaty. In TOS, that was the situation with the Romulans.

Kor

Sherman's planet must have been in that designated area then?
JB