I don't understand the hate Disco gets / still gets.

[C.E. Evans]

...looking at it from a production standpoint saves me all the headaches and hand wringing about canon.

The irony is that most of the arguments about canon would disappear if people knew that things didn't have to be in continuity with each other at all to be canon. It really was just the purview of licensing for merchandising purposes--the TOS and SNW Enterprises are both canon and either can be licensed to sell products. A fan's personal redesign of the Enterprise for his own kicks, however, isn't canon and can't be licensed for merchandising (at least without approval from ViacomCBS). Stuff like that really was the extent of canon before it started being used casually in lieu of continuity (probably because 'canon' was easier to type than 'continuity,' I guess).

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Every time I check back in I keep hoping this thread will have died a natural death, but it just keeps shambling on like a zombie.

Threads like these combine the worst elements of gatekeeping on the one side, where some are incredulous at the very concept that someone else in the world doesn’t like something they like and are willing to be critical of it and don't just fade away at the first sign of pushback.

On the other hand are the shitposters who don't really care that much about the genre or franchise or show/film, but are only in the mix because they have some outdated or bigoted or vexingly narrow and outlandish socio-political agenda they wish to push, or they just get off on rattling people and making endless arguments to watch the thread(s) crash and burn in flaming derails. Or they liked one show/film or cast or character a while back and everyone else is an imposter to their percieved vision, or to the perceived vision of some guy who died a long time ago and wasn't nearly as well-meaning or as visionary as they think, even as they appoint themselves knight defenders of his holy vision.

The people in the latter paragraph, there's no point in trying to understand or engage. We've got several of them in every current series thread and all you can do is wait for them to say something stupid enough to walk themselves into their own permaban noose.

The people in the paragraph that preceeded it that so trouble the gatekeepers are not haters, or trolls, or losers for continuing to watch or critiquing a show or aspects of it they don't like, they're people who love or have been involved with this franchise, warts and all, and gave the show a chance and didn't care for it. And that's okay, and the gatekeepers are just going to have to learn to deal with it.

I'm not saying that everyone in this thread are gatekeepers; far from it. And 99.9% of the posters in general aren't shitposting trolls. I'm just saying that threads like this serve no real purpose except to engender bitterness, excessive navel-gazing about something which is not really a mystery, or it provides a homing beacon for the shitposters.

I don't want to be a hardass and close it down, but I really wish people would question why they are keeping this endlessly going and whether that is a good look for the forum, because I don't think it is. Nor do I think it's a particularly healthy discussion, not in a mental health sense, but in encouraging better discussion on the board. I think it just leads to more tribalism.

And if someone makes a valid or constructive criticism of the show you don't like, engage them on the issue itself instead of questioning why they are still here, or what their true motives are, or calling them haters or trolls, even if they they don't use the preferred initialism of the show and say STD instead, because if a couple of letters bother you you're taking this way too seriously.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I am planning on rewatching season 4 in case it plays better in daily(ish) doses.

At some point.

 

[Steve Roby]

Every time I check back in I keep hoping this thread will have died a natural death, but it just keeps shambling on like a zombie.

Threads like these combine the worst elements of gatekeeping on the one side, where some are incredulous at the very concept that someone else in the world doesn’t like something they like and are willing to be critical of it and don't just fade away at the first sign of pushback.

Whereas I keep hoping people will stop saying that a discussion about the hate and toxicity Discovery gets from some "fans" -- not criticism, hate -- is about jumping on fans who are mildly critical of Discovery.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Whereas I keep hoping people will stop saying that a discussion about the hate and toxicity Discovery gets from some "fans" -- not criticism, hate -- is about jumping on fans who are mildly critical of Discovery.

I've had handle way too many notifications and had to quell way too many arguments in this forum where critics of the show were labelled "haters" or "trolls" because they expressed a comprehensive or constructive criticism of the show or elements therein and were told "why are you still here/watching." It's not a unique phenomena to this show nor is it representative of the vast majority of the posters, but it's not non-existent, and it's often quite vocal and makes big demands or statements to get its way.

That was who I was referring to, and it's merely one element out of many that I was trying to differentiate and describe, so there's no reason to feel personally targeted like I was referring to you or anyone else in particular for posting in this thread. You've always been a standup poster who responds to criticism constructively and calmly, and I appreciate that.

Believe me, when it comes to actual haters and trolls and bigots I am not shy about expressing my opinions about them, as I'm sure many of you are aware, I just don't feel the need to have long threads psycho-analyzing why they are the way they are or lamenting their existence. The internets gonna internet. While the vast majority of posters are good people, anonymous commentary invites the opportunity for the wretched hive of scum and villainy to blend in until they lob a word grenade into the middle of the discussion. No amount of navel-gazing into their motives as members of fandom is going to preemptively stop this, you just have to deal with it as it comes. Why give them more of a "win" by acknowledging their efforts or dwelling on them when that's exactly what they want, to be talked about, to know that they've claimed a piece of real estate in your headspace?

Anyway, since I'm now bumping this stupid thread when I didn't want to, I'll let you have the last word if you wish and then I'll bow out. Again, I hope you don't take anything personally from this. At no time did I have you or anyone specific in mind, just a general commentary on the different factions of responses to criticism around here.

 

[Gary Bitchell]

There's criticism, and then there's hate that's rooted in bigotry.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the hate towards DISCO is greater than any other Trek series - including Picard and SNW, which both play just as fast and loose with canon.

And whether you want to admit that or not, the loudest hate comes from people who scream about "politics being shoved down our throat" and "in the good old days, Trek was subtle," and other dog whistles. It's rooted in racism and bigotry, and if Michael Burnham was a white woman with a straight crew, DISCO wouldn't get the hate it gets because nothing she does is worse than the white dudes who came before her.

Pretending that there is not a loud, obnoxious, and trolly contingent of "fans" who relish their bigotry in the fandom and shutting down all discussion of that because you claim "legit' criticism is shut down is either a lie or an ignorance about the truth.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

There's criticism, and then there's hate that's rooted in bigotry.

Whether people want to admit it or not, the hate towards DISCO is greater than any other Trek series - including Picard and SNW, which both play just as fast and loose with canon.

And whether you want to admit that or not, the loudest hate comes from people who scream about "politics being shoved down our throat" and "in the good old days, Trek was subtle," and other dog whistles. It's rooted in racism and bigotry, and if Michael Burnham was a white woman with a straight crew, DISCO wouldn't get the hate it gets because nothing she does is worse than the white dudes who came before her.

Pretending that there is not a loud, obnoxious, and trolly contingent of "fans" who relish their bigotry in the fandom and shutting down all discussion of that because you claim "legit' criticism is shut down is either a lie or an ignorance about the truth.

Is this in response to me, or just a general commentary?

ETA: I was mainly just curious whether it was directed at the crowd, at me, or rather, an imaginary character with my user name who is actually making any of the arguments you're rebutting in the post, because you seem to go out of your way lecturing alternate me about things I am already well aware of and discussed in my own post at length. I just wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt first.

 

[ScottJ85]

Threads like these combine the worst elements of gatekeeping on the one side, where some are incredulous at the very concept that someone else in the world doesn’t like something they like and are willing to be critical of it and don't just fade away at the first sign of pushback.

I fall into this category way more often than I usually care to admit.

 

[New Kid 99]

I've really been in a Disco mood today. All the talk has been about Picard and SNW lately. Today's Comicon announcement was about LD, PIC, and SNW panels. Obviously, that's because those shows all have new seasons in the can, while Disco is still early in production, but it's made me hungry for some news about the show.

 

[Edinburgh]

For long periods of each episode, they have chats about feeling. They really dint need to do that. Good acting should be able to display that.

 

[Lord Garth]

The not liking the show thing I'm okay with -- believe it or not -- it's the reasons why in a lot ot cases that I'm not okay with.

If someone doesn't like the idea of DSC promoting diversity and representation, then my problem with them has nothing to do with Star Trek and has everything to do with their sociopolitical views. I make no apologies for saying that as far as I'm concerned there is no "middle ground" when it comes to diversity and representation, I won't cave in or back down on those issues under any circumstances. Wherever that leads, it leads, and so be it. Not just here, but anywhere.

I had a run-in with someone on Facebook, and I didn't find their view of DSC to be repugnant. What I found repugnant was their view on representation and calling it an "agenda". I told them exactly what I thought of them once they showed their true colors. Because they'd been hiding them for some time. Which made me even more disappointed.

Here's a thing to consider: how do they think they'd react to alien life when they can't even react well to other people from this planet who aren't like them? The message of Star Trek is lost on them and they don't even know it.

 

[fireproof78]

Here's a thing to consider: how do they think they'd react to alien life when they can't even react well to other people from this planet who aren't like them? The message of Star Trek is lost on them and they don't even know it.

Indeed. One of my biggest aspects of Star Trek that I like was that it made being alien something that could be accepted. And I would attend groups of fans and people would claim Trek was for smarter people and that it showed how we could be different and still work together. Yeah, a bit sappy but it was part of the appeal and Spock was a bit of a hero for me, someone who was able to regulate emotions in a way I couldn't.

Now, I feel like that was naivete when wanting to figure out why people think differently than I. And instead of understanding it's just arguing for thinking differently.

 

[RandyS]

The not liking the show thing I'm okay with -- believe it or not -- it's the reasons why in a lot ot cases that I'm not okay with.

If someone doesn't like the idea of DSC promoting diversity and representation, then my problem with them has nothing to do with Star Trek and has everything to do with their sociopolitical views. I make no apologies for saying that as far as I'm concerned there is no "middle ground" when it comes to diversity and representation, I won't cave in or back down on those issues under any circumstances. Wherever that leads, it leads, and so be it. Not just here, but anywhere.

And my problem with this stance is that somebody speaking about diversity and representation is dismissed out of hand as a bigot and a racist when nothing could be further from the truth. Also the same is said whenever somebody asks "what about the white man?". Again, not true. It's the calling attention to the diversity and representation that is the bigotry. After all, Sulu and Uhura were in TOS and their race was not even made an issue of. THAT is the way to handle diversity and representation. When you call attention to it, what you're really saying is that the white man is no longer welcome, so bigotry.

And DISCOVERY bent over backwards to go out of it's way to fall all over itself on this subject to the point that there are no straight white men in the show. Sure, we have Staments, but he's gay, and therefore a representation, so he doesn't count.

 

[BillJ]

Whether people want to admit it or not, the hate towards DISCO is greater than any other Trek series - including Picard and SNW, which both play just as fast and loose with canon.

You obviously weren’t around for Voyager and Enterprise. Those shows took a pounding, criticism of Discovery is pretty tame in comparison.

And DISCOVERY bent over backwards to go out of it's way to fall all over itself on this subject to the point that there are no straight white men in the show. Sure, we have Staments, but he's gay, and therefore a representation, so he doesn't count.

Won’t someone please think of the poor, underrepresented white straight male!!!

Jesus Christ, give me a break.

 

[fireproof78]

Jesus Christ, give me a break.

Fun fact, Jesus wasn't white either.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, I was in the middle of the ENT threads when the show was new. DSC gets off pretty easy in a lot of ways compared to it. To this day the theme song probably catches more flak than anything in DSC except for maybe Burnham crying.

 

[fireproof78]

To this day the theme song probably catches more flak than anything in DSC except for maybe Burnham crying.

Both of which are some bullshit reasons to complain about a show.

 

[cooleddie74]

Yeah, if you don't like a cover of a power ballad for a Trek theme fine. Even I have issues with the Season 3 and 4 up-tempo version. But 20+ years of asinine comments about the music gets tiresome.

 

[shapeshifter]

AHEM

Akiraprise

Hiring a set of breasts to play a Vulcan.

Do nothing Merriweather, AKA Chakotay 2.

Shall I go on?

 

[BillJ]

I think, for me, looking back on what I’ve watched of the show, its biggest flaw is just how generally dreary it is. They just wasted a cast with so much potential. I had real hope they were going to tone down the general dreariness with the opener of season three, but it just backslid pretty quickly back into it.