I don't understand the hate Disco gets / still gets.

[CorporalCaptain]

I mean, because she thinks of Burnham like a daughter and desperately wants to get her out of the situation that she's dug a hole for herself on. Basically, many Starfleet captains have done this and is hoping to save her by preventing a Klingon-Federation War.

I mean, I thought that was obvious.

Yeah, it was right there in what I said: "unless she thinks Burnham doesn't deserve to spend any more time in the brig."

 

[The Wormhole]

Okay so you think rendering your CO unconscious and attempting to launch an unprovoked attack wouldn't merit imprisonment?

Not a Life sentence anyway.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Not a Life sentence anyway.

Exactly.

It's like they took the story of her actually delivering a Vulcan Hello and rewrote the middle because OMG they could not stomach it. But then they tried to slough off the fact that it didn't make sense anymore.

 

[Norad]

and interestingly that creative cowardice can explain the decision not to allow Lorca to have been from the regular universe. They tried to split the difference and treat situations as if they were shooting that high, but, no, the cheats they put in place (Lorca's evil is explained by making him from the Evil Universe and let's punish Burnham severely but not let her actually do anything truly shocking, however logical and pragmatically appropriate it might have been) completely undermined the efforts to present nuanced situations, which resulted in a nonsensical mess of both plot and story.

But that's not what happened regarding Lorca. They didn't wrote a badish character and then suddenly chickened out and come up with the idea, that he could be from the Mirror Universe to explain his shitty behavior.
The character was conceived as from the Mirror Universe from the beginning, but it always was planned as a twist for the audience. And for a twist, the audience has to believe in the pretended truth, that the twist will destroy. That's why they went all-in on trying to sell the idea that Lorca was intended to be a protagonist. They even sent their showrunners into interviews with populist bullshit arguments why Lorca was good. Bullshit sentences like "he gets things done!", "he is a patriot!", "If you don't like him, you hate America!"* and similar phrases which are used when you have zero argument for something, but still want people to believe you. (* the third one they didn't say - as far as I know).
What really buffled me was how many people in an absolutely naive way fell for it and said that Lorca is a good person, although the series' first episodes clearly show that he totally isn't. The reveal that he was from the Mirror Universe did not make him one-dimensional. He was it all the time, only the reveal explained why.

The one thing they really changed only later on is Security Chief Landry. She was supposed to be from the Mirror Universe (thrown to our universe together with Lorca) - which explains her totally irrational, dumb, aggressive behavior that finally qualified her for a Darwin Award. But reportedly, the actress was such a delight to work with, that they scrapped the idea that she was from the Mirror Universe, so that they could bring her back to play her counterpart in the Mirror Universe episodes.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But that's not what happened regarding Lorca. They didn't wrote a badish character and then suddenly chickened out and come up with the idea, that he could be from the Mirror Universe to explain his shitty behavior.
The character was conceived as from the Mirror Universe from the beginning, but it always was planned as a twist for the audience. And for a twist, the audience has to believe in the pretended truth, that the twist will destroy. That's why they went all-in on trying to sell the idea that Lorca was intended to be a protagonist. They even sent their showrunners into interviews with populist bullshit arguments why Lorca was good. Bullshit sentences like "he gets things done!", "he is a patriot!", "If you don't like him, you hate America!"* and similar phrases which are used when you have zero argument for something, but still want people to believe you. (* the third one they didn't say - as far as I know).
What really buffled me was how many people in an absolutely naive way fell for it and said that Lorca is a good person, although the series' first episodes clearly show that he totally isn't. The reveal that he was from the Mirror Universe did not make him one-dimensional. He was it all the time, only the reveal explained why.

The one thing they really changed only later on is Security Chief Landry. She was supposed to be from the Mirror Universe (thrown to our universe together with Lorca) - which explains her totally irrational, dumb, aggressive behavior that finally qualified her for a Darwin Award. But reportedly, the actress was such a delight to work with, that they scrapped the idea that she was from the Mirror Universe, so that they could bring her back to play her counterpart in the Mirror Universe episodes.

Yeah, I didn't say or imply that anybody ever considered making him not from the Mirror Universe for a hot second. I just believe that they really should have. And, yeah, I completely disagree that he was anything other than one-dimensional.

However, I will agree that it was sort of interesting how people reacted to him initially, especially how there was apparently a positive reaction to his "context is for kings" remark. It never worked for me. They really laid it on thick, and I thought it tipped the show's hand that he was a sociopath.

The Burnham situation is another story. I think there is some indirect evidence that an earlier version of the script did have her pushing the button and firing on the Klingons.

 

[Saumyajit]

I have nitpicks here and there with Discovery but overall I loved season 1 to 3 and it was something new as well which was a kind of bonus. I really don't understand the level of hate this show gets, why can't some sections of the fanbase just let others enjoy this and not try and ruin their fun?

Isn't that the very spirit of IDIC, and of Star Trek?

I think this is very much to do with the franchise aspect of Star Trek. People rightly or wrongly expect Star Trek shows to be a certain way, abd Discovery is clearly different from other shows. If this was a standalone show, people who don't like it would simply shrug and move on. Since it is Star Trek, people 'want', even 'need' to like it. Or at least be assured that the DNA 'their show' is not being altered in an irreversible way.

Personally I don't like the show primarily because I think the writing is not up to the mark. Earlier versions of Star Trek also had garbage episodes, many worse thsn disvovery. But with the serialused format of Discovery it's far more difficult to just compartmentalise the bad parts and focus on the good. Because they are not standalone stories like Dr Crusher encountering her generational family ghost mate.

Also the look and feel is very different. Far grittier, far darker both in spirit and in terms of lighting. I think the main issue here is the long gap between ENT and DIS. Production aesthetics change a lot in this time. For the same reason TNG looked and felt very different from TOS, but TNG through ENT, thd changes were more incremental and didn't jolt people.

First time poster on this forums, hope I could make sense.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But with the serialused format of Discovery it's far more difficult to just compartmentalise the bad parts and focus on the good.

That's a good point.

First time poster on this forums, hope I could make sense.

Welcome!

 

[The Wormhole]

What really buffled me was how many people in an absolutely naive way fell for it and said that Lorca is a good person, although the series' first episodes clearly show that he totally isn't. The reveal that he was from the Mirror Universe did not make him one-dimensional. He was it all the time, only the reveal explained why.

While I can't speak for everyone, for me I could tell all along Lorca was from the Mirror Universe, I simply chose to ignore the elephant in the room only because I found the idea that he could be a Prime Universe Starfleet Captain driven over the edge far more interesting. Indeed, planned or not, the way Lorca's plot arc played out in the final product felt too much like the "Roddenberry Box" from TNG where humans aren't allowed to be anything other than perfect and if they aren't perfect, there has to be a sci-fi explanation for it in order for the writers to "earn their paycheck," otherwise it's "lazy writing." So we have Captain Gabriel Lorca, a rough and blunt Captain who mocks his crew for being polite and yells at others who try the "I'm and explorer, not a soldier" line that seems to be Starfleet's motto. What made this man what he is? What dark past molded him into the man Starfleet now relies on to save the Federation? He's from the Mirror Universe and is therefore Evil.

It really was a disservice to who had been until the reveal been developing into a really interesting and compelling character.

 

[Dar70]

I have nitpicks here and there with Discovery but overall I loved season 1 to 3 and it was something new as well which was a kind of bonus. I really don't understand the level of hate this show gets, why can't some sections of the fanbase just let others enjoy this and not try and ruin their fun?

Isn't that the very spirit of IDIC, and of Star Trek?

How are people ruining your fun??? We are all Star Trek fans. There will be opinions on quality. No matter where you go. Online, scifi conventions or your circle of friends. We are gonna discuss it's bad and good qualities.
I had a LOT of issues with DISCO. I had a few things i really like about it. But overall it will never ever be a favorite of mine no matter how much time passes. Every show before Discovery i have enjoyed first time around and than rewatched. DISCO i will never revisit and I'm not even sure about PICARD. But part of that is probably age. I'm getting to an age where I dont have as many years left to be rewatching stuff over and over again..lol.....as Picard said fewer years ahead than behind...lol

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

How are people ruining your fun??? We are all Star Trek fans. There will be opinions on quality. No matter where you go. Online, scifi conventions or your circle of friends. We are gonna discuss it's bad and good qualities.
I had a LOT of issues with DISCO. I had a few things i really like about it. But overall it will never ever be a favorite of mine no matter how much time passes. Every show before Discovery i have enjoyed first time around and than rewatched. DISCO i will never revisit and I'm not even sure about PICARD. But part of that is probably age. I'm getting to an age where I dont have as many years left to be rewatching stuff over and over again..lol.....as Picard said fewer years ahead than behind...lol

You're not ruining my fun but on some forums people tend to make fun of or criticize other people if they like Discovery and want to point out all the reasons they shouldn't, it's that kind of attitude that kills the fun.

 

[Dar70]

You're not ruining my fun but on some forums people tend to make fun of or criticize other people if they like Discovery and want to point out all the reasons they shouldn't, it's that kind of attitude that kills the fun.

I have been posting a bit more around her lately since SNW started up. Sometimes i do get a bit silly about others opinions. I will do my best not to make fun of people.. But i will debate. But even if you are made fun of try not to let it get to you. It's all good. Have fun with what you watch.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

I have been posting a bit more around her lately since SNW started up. Sometimes i do get a bit silly about others opinions. I will do my best not to make fun of people.. But i will debate. But even if you are made fun of try not to let it get to you. It's all good. Have fun with what you watch.

That's cool. This place is OK and generally I never find myself getting upset with anyone in general but its the wider web and places like Reddit where people are a bit more vocal about why you shouldn't like something and want to tell you exactly why you are wrong for liking something. That's the kind of place that gets me upset more.

 

[Richard S. Ta]

You're not ruining my fun but on some forums people tend to make fun of or criticize other people if they like Discovery and want to point out all the reasons they shouldn't, it's that kind of attitude that kills the fun.

There's a certain poster who likes to pull out random charts and graphs topped off with a shit Major Grin video. That tends to be as much fun as a Worf farting in a turbolift.

 

[The Wormhole]

There's a certain poster who likes to pull out random charts and graphs topped off with a shit Major Grin video. That tends to be as much fun as a Worf farting in a turbolift.

Dude, WTF? Worf farting in the turbolift would be much more fun. Like a thousand-fold more fun. Way to diss Worf and his farts.

( )

 

[Mr. Patient]

I wrote this elsewhere, but I feel it bears repeating here. I want a space to discuss something with other people who OVERALL enjoy the same show I do.

A thousand times this. Recently on reddit, someone posted that Discovery is complete rubbish, but it seems no one wants to have a conversation about it. To which I replied, Why on earth would I want to have a conversation about why a thing I like is complete rubbish? Fortunately this place is better about it.

 

[ananta]

Every show before Discovery i have enjoyed first time around and than rewatched. DISCO i will never revisit and I'm not even sure about PICARD. But part of that is probably age. I'm getting to an age where I dont have as many years left to be rewatching stuff over and over again..lol.....as Picard said fewer years ahead than behind...lol

i totally get you. I started rewatching some Voyager and very quickly realised, I ain’t got no time for This. I’m two years into a stage four cancer diagnosis. I love Trek but I’m only gonna stick rewatching the ones I really love and not the ones I don’t. Enterprise will never figure in on these rewatches either. I wont waste precious time complaining why and make a troll of myself. I’ll just stick to what I love as that is the best medicine.

 

[Dar70]

i totally get you. I started rewatching some Voyager and very quickly realised, I ain’t got no time for This. I’m two years into a stage four cancer diagnosis. I love Trek but I’m only gonna stick rewatching the ones I really love and not the ones I don’t. Enterprise will never figure in on these rewatches either. I wont waste precious time complaining why and make a troll of myself. I’ll just stick to what I love as that is the best medicine.

I very sorry about your diagnosis. I hope you continue to beat it...

Voyager and Enterprise had their bad episodes but both shows improved grealty during their runs. Voyager had some stellar 2 parters as well as Enterprise. I rewatched TNG through ENT. Mostly during the Pandemic. It was a very enjoyable rewatch overall. I think I may rewatch them all at least one more time. I have other shows I enjoy rewatching as well. Thankfully they are not as long as Star Trek...

 

[ananta]

Thanks Dar70!
Yeah, it’s funny I can rewatch all of TOS and not want to skip an episode and I also like the first two seasons of TNG more than some of the latter ones. You’re not supposed to admit that in public though

I think I’ve decided that it’s ok to have your favourite Treks. Some I love for the fact theyre just amazing, some I love for the fact they bring me back to times in my life I was happiest. Others just don’t work for me, and that’s fine. I’m happy that others get more from them. I just wish other fans had more of a live and let live attitude. The negativity can really bum you out. But, as I’ve said before, Trekbbs is really the most civil and sane Trek space on the net.

 

[ichab]

There’s a certain subsection of fandom that just sucks. Not just Trek fandom but more or less any group of fans. I think things are much worse in the social media era. Too many people thrive on negativity, outrage and inflating their ego by imposing their perceived superiority to the thing or people they object to. It’s like that whole “owning the Libs” thing but with Star Trek as the focus.

This isn’t new. Many TOS fans loathed and protested TNG when it arrived, although I wasn’t around for that. Apparently many even hated and protested The Wrath of Khan too, which is hard to imagine given its celebrated status. Back when DS9 was airing it got so much hate I often felt I was one of the only people who truly loved it and considered it peak Trek. But the criticism was relentless.

Trek fans are just exhausting at times. In years to come, DIS will probably be looked back on at the bold beginning of a golden age for Trek and celebrated for its guts and grit. Heck, even VOY and ENT seem to be held in high esteem these days, even though a lot of the criticism they got was, in my view, legitimate. I didn’t waste my time bitching about them though. I just stopped watching and watched other shows I did like (hello Farscape!).

I love Trekbbs because it is more balanced and positive than, say, Reddit or the comments sections of sites like Trekmovie. Places like that make me wonder why these people even still bother with Star Trek and don’t switch to some other franchise they’d actually enjoy.

Right on all counts.
The Wrath of Khan backlash was mainly due to Spock's death being leaked. It was originally suppose to happen at the beginning of the movie, but the fan backlash forced it towards the end. The TNG backlash was basically from the "Any show without Kirk, Spock and McCoy isn't Star Trek" crowd. DS9 was mostly because it wasn't the typical ship show. The Voyager and Enterprise hate was mostly fans tired of Berman and Braga. For me TOS, TNG and DS9 was Trek at its best. I would watch Voyager and Enterprise from time to time, but I mostly agreed with its critics. The franchise either needed a break or different people in charge. But my father LOVED Voyager and thought Endgame was the greatest Trek finale ever. And don't even get me started with the arguments I had with some fans when Star Trek 2009 was released. How DARE they recast the original crew and look at all the canon violations. To which I said "Who cares? People are enjoying Star Trek again."

Fandom of all franchises can be mean and nasty. You'll find it in OT Star Wars fans vs PT fans, Marvel vs D.C fans etc. It's not enough to like some parts of a franchise. Everyone must agree with them and they will make it their mission to piss on the parts they dont like until the end of eternity.

 

[The Wormhole]

The Voyager and Enterprise hate was mostly fans tired of Berman and Braga.

Maybe "fans tired of Berman and Braga" might explain the Enterprise hate, but Voyager? Braga didn't even achieve authority on that show until the fifth season, so how do you explain the hate it got for the first four?