I don't understand the hate Disco gets / still gets.

[Sci]

Maybe i'm just naïve and blind, but I honestly don't think that's as often the case as we may be conditioned to think.

"Conditioned?" Hate to tell you this, but no one "conditioned" me to think anything except my own observations.

I think we need to take a more holistic look at how we view people and their opinions, especially when their way of expressing their feelings is a little "immature / passionate," and not immediately jump to "obviously these people are racist homophobe white supremecist assholes..." because historical evidence doesn't support that intense hatred for franchise products requires that element.

I feel like we're conditioned to see racists and bigots everywhere. Respectfully, we need to be better than that, and we need to be more thoughtful. I generally try to stay out of discussions about cultural / political stuff here, because I come here to escape, not engage in that stuff. But...I feel I need to gently and respectfully say my opinion here.

Don't let a few loud jackasses online and on YouTube lead you to believe that people who react strongly to something they are passionate about are driven by bigotry. There surely are some, but I don't think it's the numbers some of you are thinking.... Some of those "haters" may be annoying, grating, insufferable assholes....but that doesn't make them bigots.

I don't disagree with you that there are people who hate something, even unfairly, without being bigots. But I've been in online fandom for over twenty years. I can suss out the difference. If someone is upset or outraged that characters like Burnham do literally all the same things every other captain has done, that tells me this is not just about the quality of the writing.

 

[donners22]

I think we need to take a more holistic look at how we view people and their opinions, especially when their way of expressing their feelings is a little "immature / passionate," and not immediately jump to "obviously these people are racist homophobe white supremecist assholes..." because historical evidence doesn't support that intense hatred for franchise products requires that element.

I feel like we're conditioned to see racists and bigots everywhere. Respectfully, we need to be better than that, and we need to be more thoughtful. I generally try to stay out of discussions about cultural / political stuff here, because I come here to escape, not engage in that stuff. But...I feel I need to gently and respectfully say my opinion here.

Don't let a few loud jackasses online and on YouTube lead you to believe that people who react strongly to something they are passionate about are driven by bigotry. There surely are some, but I don't think it's the numbers some of you are thinking.... Some of those "haters" may be annoying, grating, insufferable assholes....but that doesn't make them bigots.

It is of course not a majority who are bigots. However, social media visibility is not proportionate. To take one example - and far from the only one, but I just happened to capture this in a timely fashion - over a quarter of reviews (not negative reviews, mind you, but all reviews) posted soon after one episode of Discovery expressed a bigoted motive for disliking it (and at least some clearly hadn't watched it at all, they'd just heard about a single bit of dialogue in it). How many others disguised their bigoted motivation?

The same small number of bigots can have a large presence by being very active in commenting, reviewing etc - and opinions can be readily coloured by such vocal critics. I keep seeing the same few (now-blocked) accounts pop up on Twitter with negative comments about every current instalment of Trek. To someone who doesn't pay close attention, all they'll see is a number of negative comments about a show, without realising what's really behind it.

 

[at Quark's]

There might also be people that aren't bigots themselves but simply object to perceived 'messages' or political agenda's being pushed in their entertainment, whatever their own stance on that supposed 'message' is. However, Trek has done this since TOS so I wouldn't expect these people to be Trek fans in the first place.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

There might also be people that aren't bigots themselves but simply object to perceived 'messages' or political agenda's being pushed in their entertainment, whatever their own stance on that supposed 'message' is. However, Trek has done this since TOS so I wouldn't expect these people to be Trek fans in the first place.

But but Discovery is woke Trek /s It all started with Disco /s
That's one of the arguments I hear sometimes, almost as if people never heard of the original series.

 

[FederationHistorian]

The topic title refers to the hate Discovery gets. Hate. So naturally people who don't like it but aren't rabidly frothing about it assume it must be talking about them. If you don't actively hate Discovery, maybe this isn't about you.

There very clearly and obviously are people who rabidly hate Discovery (and recent Doctor Who) for misogynistic and racist reasons, and many of them are really fucking loud about it. I've quit going to certain online hangouts because those people dominated the comments. You folks who found it just doesn't work for you, the way I felt about Voyager and Enterprise to an extent, are not those people, so stop getting your knickers in a twist. No one said that everyone who expresses any criticism of a Star Trek show is a baby-eating Nazi.

Now, I'll admit that I personally do think that some of the reasonable sounding people who express quiet concern about the quality of the writing, or canon issues, or not caring for the degree of serialization, or whatever, are people who are lying through their teeth when they say it's not about race or sex or whatever, because some of them just can't stop themselves from letting it slip out. Like the guy who posted somewhere very reasonably and politely, taking two paragraphs or so to say that the problem with the current Doctor Who is not the woman Doctor, that's fine, but ended up saying the show was so bad with a woman Doctor that he's happy he doesn't have to worry about ever seeing another female Doctor. He forgot that he was pretending to be okay with the idea, just not the execution.

The same things are happening in both fandoms. People are condemning new Trek and new Who in the same ways, saying they're only criticizing poor writing and changes to canon. Then many of them drop the mask by complaining about wokeness. Complaining about wokeness doesn't say anything about the show you're watching, but it certainly says something about you.

But again: if the show just doesn't work for you but you don't go screaming about it everywhere online, this is not about you.

It’s not a question of hate. Its more a question of why has no one has explained why they like Disco as is – the setting, the cast the show focuses on and how they are characterized, the melodrama, the writing, the threat-of-the-season storytelling - and why they care that people hate their vision of Star Trek, including its "wokeness"? Why do they agree with those that hold the show to critical acclaim over those that hate the show and think the show has helped to ruin the franchise? And why do they still stick with Discovery despite its haters?

Its hard to change the view of haters when the fans of Discovery don’t really defend Discovery.

 

[Lord Garth]

It’s not a question of hate. Its more a question of why has no one has explained why they like Disco as is – the setting, the cast the show focuses on and how they are characterized, the melodrama, the writing, the threat-of-the-season storytelling - and why they care that people hate their vision of Star Trek, including its "wokeness"? Why do they agree with those that hold the show to critical acclaim over those that hate the show and think the show has helped to ruin the franchise? And why do they still stick with Discovery despite its haters?

Its hard to change the view of haters when the fans of Discovery don’t really defend Discovery.

Well, I work full-time (also got bumped up to a Supervisor not too long ago) and I have other things I do on the side besides this. Keeping up with constant Anti-Disco Onslaught would be another full-time job in and of itself. Which is why, last summer, I wanted others to do it without me. I'd had it with this place, I'm over that now, but my basic sentiment still stands. I want others to do it without me. As it is, I pick and choose what I go all-in for and when I do it.

At some point it has to be acknowledged (in general), "I know where you stand, you know where I stand, we've been through this over and over, what more is there to discuss?" If it goes on constantly, it wears everyone down to the point of diminishing returns. I'll repeat something that I probably said better before.

 

[Lord Garth]

Case in point: @FederationHistorian, you don't think there's a point in having an Archer Space Station in DSC and naming it as such. I disagree because I think Archer represents the beginning of Starfleet and Rillak wants to give some political speech about Starfleet returning to its roots. What better way to say Starfleet is returning to its roots of exploration than rolling out Archer's name? She did it to evoke a feel-good, I'd even say patriotic response. Which is what a President would do.

I didn't mention that at the time, because I was too busy responding to other people's shit, and I didn't want it to look like I was going after everything. So, I just decided, "Eh, whatever. I disagree, but no big deal." I picked and I chose. But that's my alternate point-of-view on the Archer reference.

Rillak and the people of the 32nd Century Federation would view people like Archer the same way we view George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Alexander Hamilton, Ben Franklin, John Hancock, and the like: Founders of the Nation and people responsible for its beginning. Throw in some Lewis & Clark too, since Archer was an explorer and expeditioner.

I've argued with people time and time and time and time and time again that sometimes references have deeper meaning than they're willing to think. That to instantly dismiss them is lazy and not looking into (or even considering) a bigger picture. After four years, I'd finally reached a point where I decided "Screw it, these people aren't going to listen, so why am I even wasting my time?"

Some people say there's closed-mindedness to any criticism of DSC, but I think there's also closed-mindedness to any defense of it. It's a two-way street.

 

[at Quark's]

But but Discovery is woke Trek /s It all started with Disco /s
That's one of the arguments I hear sometimes, almost as if people never heard of the original series.

Perhaps some of them haven't. In general, I don't think we can expect people that at this point are just casual viewers having their first experience with Trek in Discovery to be entirely cognizant of its 55-year history, nor expect them to find it all out. That stuff comes later, when someone is really getting into Trek.

However, for someone that's going to complain vociferously about e.g. its 'wokeness' it wouldn't hurt to check a bit of that background first. I suppose that doesn't always happen.

 

[Steve Roby]

It’s not a question of hate. Its more a question of why has no one has explained why they like Disco as is – the setting, the cast the show focuses on and how they are characterized, the melodrama, the writing, the threat-of-the-season storytelling - and why they care that people hate their vision of Star Trek, including its "wokeness"? Why do they agree with those that hold the show to critical acclaim over those that hate the show and think the show has helped to ruin the franchise? And why do they still stick with Discovery despite its haters?

Its hard to change the view of haters when the fans of Discovery don’t really defend Discovery.

This is a Star Trek fan board. I am a Star Trek fan. I like Star Trek: Discovery. I don't have to defend a goddamned thing.

 

[fireproof78]

It’s not a question of hate. Its more a question of why has no one has explained why they like Disco as is – the setting, the cast the show focuses on and how they are characterized, the melodrama, the writing, the threat-of-the-season storytelling - and why they care that people hate their vision of Star Trek, including its "wokeness"? Why do they agree with those that hold the show to critical acclaim over those that hate the show and think the show has helped to ruin the franchise? And why do they still stick with Discovery despite its haters?

Its hard to change the view of haters when the fans of Discovery don’t really defend Discovery.

I like the characters. Period.

Anything else?

 

[ananta]

Its hard to change the view of haters when the fans of Discovery don’t really defend Discovery.

Why should anyone care what they think? We aren’t on trial. You like a series, great; you don’t….well, the world keeps on spinning.

 

[nic3636]

Going back to the original poster's question, I think there's a few reasons:

- Every Star Trek series has gotten A LOT of hate. I remember it well. Star Trek fans are a grumpy bunch.
- There's been a lot of really good TV in the past 10 years, so the bar has gotten higher.
- Certain people have figured out to be much louder and more obnoxious on the internet these days compared to the 90s.
- Discovery has changed showrunners several times in its life (sometimes mid-season) which is especially noticeable and doesn't help when telling a serialized arc. The show struggled for a while finding its identity.
- Speaking of serialized arcs, I don't think the writers are very good at this (obviously my personal opinion).

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Going back to the original poster's question, I think there's a few reasons:

- Every Star Trek series has gotten A LOT of hate. I remember it well. Star Trek fans are a grumpy bunch.
- There's been a lot of really good TV in the past 10 years, so the bar has gotten higher.
- Certain people have figured out to be much louder and more obnoxious on the internet these days compared to the 90s.
- Discovery has changed showrunners several times in its life (sometimes mid-season) which is especially noticeable and doesn't help when telling a serialized arc. The show struggled for a while finding its identity.
- Speaking of serialized arcs, I don't think the writers are very good at this (obviously my personal opinion).

I think most of that can apply to a lot of other Star Trek too. Also Voyager and its constant reset button that really pissed me off.

 

[nic3636]

I think most of that can apply to a lot of other Star Trek too. Also Voyager and its constant reset button that really pissed me off.

The series I will always hate the most is ENT. Outside of a few good episodes in S3 and S4, that series was trash from start to finish. It also had the weakest acting and the least interesting characters by a mile. The only good one was blue Weyoun and he wasn't even a main character. So yeah, I'm a huge ENT hater.

I like DIS. It has its ups and its downs but on the whole I think it's a decent series.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

It’s not a question of hate. Its more a question of why has no one has explained why they like Disco as is – the setting, the cast the show focuses on and how they are characterized, the melodrama, the writing, the threat-of-the-season storytelling - and why they care that people hate their vision of Star Trek, including its "wokeness"? Why do they agree with those that hold the show to critical acclaim over those that hate the show and think the show has helped to ruin the franchise? And why do they still stick with Discovery despite its haters?

Its hard to change the view of haters when the fans of Discovery don’t really defend Discovery.

You think the posters of this forum haven't explained what they like about Discovery in exhaustive detail across countless threads? Are you kidding me? That's a ludicrous take on the situation that could be remedied by simply looking at any critical thread and seeing the number of posters that show up to defend the show.

As far as caring about people not liking the show's "wokeness"? It's an indicator of their dislike of diversity, their dislike of changing gender roles and gender identities, of their dislike of not being able to be an asshole without getting pushback on it now, and other things like that which signify their unwillingness to adapt with modern society, to not learn from history and make better choices. If they can't handle the mild wokeness of Discovery which is completely consistent with the tone and intent of prior Trek shows, that means they're going to have much worse problems in the real world which can lead to obstructionism on civil rights or even violence, which is certainly something worth caring about.

 

[EnderAKH]

I wrote this elsewhere, but I feel it bears repeating here. I want a space to discuss something with other people who OVERALL enjoy the same show I do. I find it FAR more interesting to discuss a show with someone who is invested in it as opposed to not invested, ie, criticism is more like "I love the show, but this episode blew chunks. Where usually Spock is fairly consistently written as being unemotional, in this episode he was shouting 'The WOMEN!' every other sentence," as opposed to the 300th iteration of, "this episode was as bad as all the rest. The acting was decent, but the pacing was as off as it always is, the writing choices were as dumb as they always are, and the effects as usual looked like something cooked up in a TRS-80 in 1988." The first one makes me engage and want to discuss why I might see the show differently. The second one, I may have wanted to engage with the first, or even the 10th time. But two and a half years later? The response to that second one just becomes "We KNOW. We GET IT. So WHY ARE YOU WATCHING A SHOW YOU CLEARLY DISLIKE?" There is no ENGAGEMENT there, because clearly nothing the writers do will EVER satisfy that person, so what kind of productive conversation can be had? It's just the 300th version of the same conversation. I can't stop people against doing this, there are no rules against people doing this, but for the life of me I will never ever understand it.

 

[fireproof78]

can't stop people against doing this, there are no rules against people doing this, but for the life of me I will never ever understand it.

Because being a fan means being miserable...apparently.

I don't get it either. I thought fans liked something not endured it.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

Because being a fan means being miserable...apparently.

I don't get it either. I thought fans liked something not endured it.

It all comes down to the age old saying: No one hates Star Trek like Star Trek fans do.

 

[fireproof78]

It all comes down to the age old saying: No one hates Star Trek like Star Trek fans do.

I guess...

I must be getting old. Life's too short to spend energy on hating a show.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

I guess...

I must be getting old. Life's too short to spend energy on hating a show.

I’m too old for this also, I get what you’re saying. When I find myself not liking something I stop watching it. It’s quite simple: I don’t want to waste my time hating on things and being hell-bent on ruining them for others in the process. I do think it’s necessary to point out flaws, of course, especially when you DO like a show - it’s always good to question things and examine the hows and whys - but if that is the ONLY thing someone does when it comes to a show? If they simply watch it just to hate on it and write long lists about every single minuscule “error” they think they’ve found? I find that kind of attitude rather… concerning.

But then a whole lot of the Disco haters are around my age (mid/late 30s). I’m pretty sure someone has done or is doing studies on why that is so and why they seem to think current Trek “ruins my childhood”.