I don't understand the hate Disco gets / still gets.
- Thread starter Gingerbread Demon
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In fairness, it's all relative. If SNW had been first out of the gate, it would have been the one catching all the ire.
1. Doesn't look like TOS
2. Isn't true to the characters we see in "The Cage"
3. Why is this episodic and not being told with modern serialized storytelling techniques?
4. etc.
5. etc.
6. etc.
DSC looked nothing like TOS, so the fact that SNW looks partially like TOS is getting praise because it looks more like the TOS Era than it did before. If SNW were the first New Trek series out the gate, it would be bashed for not looking enough like TOS. The bashing just wouldn't have been the same degree, but it would still be there. "It looks too much like the Abrams Films!" would've been a huge sticking point, whether true or not.
(I look at like this: SNW was one way to update the TOS Era, the Kelvin Films were another way, and Disco ignored it.)
And, like I keep saying, they're biased. They like SNW, so they're more willing to forgive. "I'm not biased!" Yes, yes you are.
(I look at like this: SNW was one way to update the TOS Era, the Kelvin Films were another way, and Disco ignored it.)
And, like I keep saying, they're biased. They like SNW, so they're more willing to forgive. "I'm not biased!" Yes, yes you are.
Even PIC benefitted from some of the lessons learned from Seasons 1 and 2 of DSC. Much as DS9 and VOY were praised for doing some things that TOS and TNG didn't even though their production quality and technology weren't much if any different at the time they were made and the Berman Era aesthetic remained largely unchanged for the entire time he ran the franchise.
"Not True Trek."
Waiting for that one to be slapped on to SNW. Sorry, but that's the way it goes. SNW is skating by being after DSC and PIC. It has it's strong points, but it certainly wouldn't be regarded that way if it was first.
I haven't seen any "SNW isn't the real new Star Trek, The Orville is!" comments yet, but I'm sure they're out there.
But SNW is getting some criticism for both of these things, more so for #2 than for #1 perhaps, but still for both.* Just look in the SNW forum, and it's not hard to spot.
* - My opinion is that it's all meritless criticism.
It's just the first episodes have been so good, so the praise is dampening that criticism.
Una in SNW is pretty close to Number One in "The Cage(TOS)" and any changes to Pike's behavior can in part be explained by his experiences on Talos IV and with the Klingon time crystal. There. We're done. It's called the passage of time and character development.
Yeah, I agree...but I think today's reaction is "minor-to-moderate criticism" whereas if it had premiered out of the gate in 2017 as the first new Trek show since ENT, it would have been "vitriol, hatred, and venom."
To be fair, SNW seems far more comfortable in expressing it's TOS heritage than DSC ever was. From the brash primary uniform colours, gem buttons and original SFX, there are enough little touches everywhere to result in SNW evoking TOS, even if it doesn't resemble it.
DSC in contrast, in the first season at least seemed to make great effort to distance itself from any previous Trek IMO. They say it's in the Prime timeline, so that's okay with me. If that's what they say, then that's what they say and so that's that. But it doesn't stop DSC looking like a show that takes place in some sort of alternate universe.
I think SNW is working really hard to serve up the fuzzy feelings for fans, whilst being a consistently entertaining show for a broader audience in general. DSC Season 1 in comparison really challenges the viewer. I think there's some sort of admirable hubris to it myself, going as far as it did.
It's just one of those things. Nostalgia is a drug and it takes DSC until Season 2 to really start to play with it.
I think DSC Season 1 is a really interesting thing. There's lots of early instalment weirdness and everybody hating each other in the first half becomes a bit of a grind, but I love how bold it is and by the end of the season there's really a feeling the characters have grown. If we'd got Bryan Fuller's original wish of one shot seasons in different time periods with different casts, DSC Season 1 would still work. By the end there's a sense that life goes on for these people, but the story which started The Vulcan Hello is satisfyingly done.
After DSC is done and dusted a big book of behind the scenes stuff needs to be written so I can buy it and read it. Something like the 25 Years books maybe, but all for DSC. I think it's the most schizophrenic Star Trek ever, but the show does have its' own energy. I feel I'm in a dwindling minority, but I still prefer DSC to SNW and I can't imagine that ever changing. I like SNW well enough, but it all feels very safe for me. DSC is a show that has always taken risks, I guess hence it's divisiveness.
This is the honeymoon period for the fanboi crazies (see how quickly things went sideways for stupid reasons with the Sequel Trilogy).
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Yep. Well said.
It is embracing that quite well which will protect it a little bit more from the critique. It won't save it, but the shields will hold a little bit longer.
By and large, and what SNW shows, is that for those who say "it doesn't feel like Trek" has little to do with stories or characters, but with aesthetics and design. It's like returning to your old school or a family home. When little in the exterior is changed or if the interior is similar enough then it invites the warm feeling of familiarity. DSC was far more of that return to find the house completely remodeled and less familiar but new and exciting and offputting all at the same time.
I don't begrudge either sentiment. Certainly I am not a person who enjoys or even finds pleasure in change. Unfortunately, for me, that also means that Trek is a really poor franchise for me as one of my third or fourth forays in to science fiction.
I don't think there will be that much vitriol levelled against SNW. I've been posting in Star Trek communities since 1996. SNW is different because it's the first Trek series in a long time that's actively going out of its way not to piss anyone off.
That's both a strength and a weakness at the same time.
That's both a strength and a weakness at the same time.
Or less people care as much, the shows are what they are and they're not changing; so either embrace them or don't watch them.
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Yeah, it sounds like comfort food with loads of well used Trek tropes, a double edge sword not unlike with The Force Awakens and The Mandalorian (that are both very good, but not hugely revolutionary).
Safe and predictable.
I'd argue that, yes, Discovery looks different, just as "The Cage" looks different from TOS looks different from TMP looks different from TWOK looks different from.... But Discovery drew heavily on TOS lore, even if you just look at the first season, from the story of Spock choosing Starfleet over the Vulcan Science Academy, to the Mirror Universe, to Harry Mudd, to any number of big and small easter eggs. It visually distanced itself from TOS in much the same way that every new Star Trek has visually distanced itself. Hell, aside from the bridge, SNW looks closer to ST 2009 than TOS. But Discovery found many ways to let fans know that it knew what it was part of.
1. SNW isn't what I asked for but the episodes have been very good, nonetheless. I don't demand that everything be exactly what I ask for, because you never know, you might be surprised.
2. SNW giving some people what they wanted five years ago is quieting them down about DSC because now they have a show they want.
I consider both of these things to be good.
2. SNW giving some people what they wanted five years ago is quieting them down about DSC because now they have a show they want.
I consider both of these things to be good.
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