I don't know how I feel about Torchwood

[Starkers]

Bob: TOS Kirk only got with maybe two women in the entirety of the actual show. He had at least one *past* relationship (Carol Marcus). But he wasn't anywhere near the shameless horndog that nuKirk is. Or that Jack seems to be.

On the contrary, he'd have to, to be successful in that endeavour.

I'm not following.

I guess I don't remember the show too well then because I seem to remember at least 3 times in the show, and probably more, but I never did watch TOS much.

ANd I think David means he'd have to take rejection pretty lightly to try it on so many different people.

Kirk got a lot of action, or at least it was implied he had a lot of action. Karidian's daughter, Flint's robot girl, Edith Keeler, his ex in The Deadly Years, Carol Marcus, a slavegirl in Bread and Circuses, the officer he supposedly had a fling with at the Christmas party referenced in Dagger of the Mind...and all this is just off the top of my head!

 

[Starkers]

Oh yeah the chick in The Gamsters of Triskelian as well...there are many more I'm sure!

 

[Starkers]

For all it's "let's have some fun, don't take anything too serious and who cares for consistency anyway" attitude

Bingo.

I can't stand shows like that. I like it when a show (or film) takes itself SERIOUSLY. If it doesn't, it's not for me.

It's why I like Star Trek but not Firefly; Law & Order but not Bones; the original BSG, not the remake; etc.

Torchwood took itself too seriously at first. Shows can only get away with that if they're good. The Wire can take itself seriously.

Now, Torchwood isn't bad, but it's not *that* good. And thus it improved overall when it reduced its serious-taking-ness down to a level more in line with its actual quality in season 2.

Still need to see season 3. DVDs are ordered.

For instance, one of the problems with Enterprise was that the writers thought Archer was a better captain than they ever demonstrated him to be. If they'd been just slightly more self-aware when writing the show, they could have played off the viewer reaction rather than pushing against it, giving us a better product in the process. Oh well....

Want to know why everyone is so iffy about SGU? Because it's increased the serious-taking-ness quotient, and nobody's yet sure if it really has the quality to back that up or not.

Yeah I agree, TW got better in S2 once it stopped taking itself so seriously...conversly however it got stpendously good in S3 by taking itself incredibly seriously, more so than S1!

Good point about Ent, I always liked Bakula in Quantum LEap, but he was horribly miscast in Enterprise, he just never came across like a Captain to me. I thought right from the off that Trineer would have made a much more interesting captain. That said I'm not sure anything would have saved that show...

 

[OmahaStar]

That said I'm not sure anything would have saved that show...

Competent writing?

 

[Tulin]

That said I'm not sure anything would have saved that show(Enterprise)...

Competent writing?

All new producers

All new cast(or at least human beings with personalities - the black guy performed the singular feat of ACTUALLY being a vanilla black man)

All new writers

All new set designers

All new composers

All new...........well, you get the point.

 

[Steve Roby]

Interesting that you should mention Enterprise, as that was my favorite Trek series of all time. Now do you understand me a bit better?

It doesn't help me. Sure, Enterprise is the most politically conservative Trek series (and that's only the fourth or fifth most important reason why I don't like it), but at the same time it also had a lot of really adolescent moments involving or hinting at sex, like the decon gel rubdowns. If you can live with those scenes...

I must confess that the Wiki browsing I've been doing, has not exactly been encouraging. This Jack guy, for instance. He seems like the typical arrogant Lothario who won't take no for an answer....characters like that have always irritated me. (i.e. Han Solo, Tom Paris, the Abramsverse version of Jim Kirk, etc.)

There's a lot of talk about how Jack loves and will hit on - and presumably nail - anybody and everybody (kind of like Frank Booth from Blue Velvet). Guess he doesn't take rejection lightly, eh?

Jack is in no way like Frank Booth, who is a mean and nasty piece of work. There's a certain degree of arrogance, sure, but Jack is a charmer, not a pushy jerk.

Hell, if you can watch Blue Velvet, in which there are few healthy relationships and some deeply weird ideas about love and sex, Torchwood shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Jack is a charmer, not a pushy jerk.

I admit sometimes it is hard for me to distinguish between those two things. I always viewed charmers as jerks.

Hell, if you can watch Blue Velvet, in which there are few healthy relationships and some deeply weird ideas about love and sex, Torchwood shouldn't be a problem.

I didn't say I *enjoyed* Blue Velvet, did I? I mean, it's not like it's a repeat viewing for me...

 

[Tribble]

Jack is in no way like Frank Booth, who is a mean and nasty piece of work. There's a certain degree of arrogance, sure, but Jack is a charmer, not a pushy jerk.

I agree. Jack enjoys flirting, and he prides himself of being irresistable. You might call that arrogant, but it's all playful and in no way mean-spirited. He easily accepts a no, and he wouldn't want to cause discomfort in others (well, maybe just a bit to irritate his opponents), let alone force himself upon someone. Plus, I find it refreshing that he doesn't limit himself to pretty girls, it's nice to see that the guys get their share of sexual banter as well.

Normally, I don't fancy those womaniser type of guys; I can like them all right despite, but, well, never more. Jack is one of two remarkable exceptions to that rule.

As for Kirk, there are only a few women (two or three if I remember correctly) where there are strong hints that he actually slept with them, but countless times where he leers at women, flirts with them, kisses them etc, or where he plays along when they try to seduce him. Well, of course, many a time it's for the greater good and the rescue of the ship, but well...

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Jack Harkness on Doctor Who will fuck anything that moves. On Torchwood, he seems pretty secure in his office-fucking monogamy with Ianto.

There's a pretty good line that accompanies the nude photos of Jack & Ianto-- "Torchwood. My show doesn't need Photoshop."

Bingo.

I can't stand shows like that. I like it when a show (or film) takes itself SERIOUSLY. If it doesn't, it's not for me.

It's why I like Star Trek but not Firefly; Law & Order but not Bones; the original BSG, not the remake; etc.

Torchwood took itself too seriously at first. Shows can only get away with that if they're good. The Wire can take itself seriously.

Now, Torchwood isn't bad, but it's not *that* good. And thus it improved overall when it reduced its serious-taking-ness down to a level more in line with its actual quality in season 2.

Still need to see season 3. DVDs are ordered.

For instance, one of the problems with Enterprise was that the writers thought Archer was a better captain than they ever demonstrated him to be. If they'd been just slightly more self-aware when writing the show, they could have played off the viewer reaction rather than pushing against it, giving us a better product in the process. Oh well....

Want to know why everyone is so iffy about SGU? Because it's increased the serious-taking-ness quotient, and nobody's yet sure if it really has the quality to back that up or not.

Yeah I agree, TW got better in S2 once it stopped taking itself so seriously...conversly however it got stpendously good in S3 by taking itself incredibly seriously, more so than S1!

Good point about Ent, I always liked Bakula in Quantum LEap, but he was horribly miscast in Enterprise, he just never came across like a Captain to me. I thought right from the off that Trineer would have made a much more interesting captain. That said I'm not sure anything would have saved that show...

I don't think it's so much that they took themselves less seriously in Season 2. I think the writers just realized that the characters as they had been writing them in Season 1 were really unlikable (like, nuBSG unlikable). In particular, Gwen, who was supposed to be the moral center of the show, made some terrible decisions. In Season 2, they stopped being such contemptible fuck-tards, and the show became enjoyable.

As for Captain Archer, I agree. He always seemed like such an intellectual lightweight. In fact, he reminded me of Will Ferrell's impression of George W. Bush. Captain Archer in Seasons 3 & 4 was just a post-9/11 Bush parody. He's still a lightweight but now he scowls a lot because everything's IMPORTANT and SERIOUS. Jonathan Archer was more like a posturing kid than a Starfleet Captain.

 

[Starkers]

I dunno, I do think S2 took itself a lot less seriously...within a few minutes of the first episode we had a fish driving a sportscar and an old lady shouting "Bloody Torchwood!" But they did make the characters more likeable, and somehow made Ianto a dryly humourous god amonst men.

Enterprise was just so bland, especially at first. Archer was bland, the janitor style unifoms were bland, the theme song was bland, mayweather, Hoshi and Dominic Keating were bland...it just felt tired right from the start. I remember reading a release of the character bios though and the warning signs were there. Archer was such a cipher, and other characters woefully miscreated. Hoshi's fear of space travel was a great character trait, apart from the fact that she got over it in a few episodes and was left with little else, Mayweather was the worst one though, potentially the best character of the lot. A callow youth who was actually more experienced than any of the command staff when it came to being "Out there" completely wasted.

 

[David cgc]

And I think David means he'd have to take rejection pretty lightly to try it on so many different people.

Bingo.

I dunno, I do think S2 took itself a lot less seriously...within a few minutes of the first episode we had a fish driving a sportscar and an old lady shouting "Bloody Torchwood!" But they did make the characters more likeable, and somehow made Ianto a dryly humourous god amonst men.

I thought Torchwood became a lot better once it was willing to be a little farcical. Because it was always farcical, but it took itself so damn seriously. I mean, the Sex Gas? The Sex Gas?! It acted like it was an episode of Law & Order or some damn thing. And the stupid damn affair in the second half of the season? Ridiculous!

I feel like Stargate: Universe is having the same problem. The characters and situations are absurd to one degree or another, but the show insists on acting as though it's all perfectly reasonable and well-executed. If they were willing to be a bit more wacky, it'd probably give them the breathing room for the characters to start to feel a bit truer, just as happened on Torchwood. And then once they get their groove, they can double back and be serious effectively, just like Torchwood.

 

[RoJoHen]

I just finished "Children of Earth," and man was that INTENSE! That was some of the best TV I've ever seen. But where the hell do we go from here? Is there a Season 4?

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I just finished "Children of Earth," and man was that INTENSE! That was some of the best TV I've ever seen. But where the hell do we go from here? Is there a Season 4?

Apparently they're in talks about it, no idea at this point what it'll be, 13 eps again or 5 or what, but Russell T Davis has said that he prefers the big story telling of 1 story over the run of the series.

 

[RoJoHen]

I just finished "Children of Earth," and man was that INTENSE! That was some of the best TV I've ever seen. But where the hell do we go from here? Is there a Season 4?

Apparently they're in talks about it, no idea at this point what it'll be, 13 eps again or 5 or what, but Russell T Davis has said that he prefers the big story telling of 1 story over the run of the series.

I loved the format of "Children of Earth." If season 4 is only 5 episodes long, so be it. It made for an excellent story.

I'm just so sad about all the characters that have died. Seriously, where do we go from here? I must give them credit for taking risks like that with the characters.

 

[Bob The Skutter]

I just finished "Children of Earth," and man was that INTENSE! That was some of the best TV I've ever seen. But where the hell do we go from here? Is there a Season 4?

Apparently they're in talks about it, no idea at this point what it'll be, 13 eps again or 5 or what, but Russell T Davis has said that he prefers the big story telling of 1 story over the run of the series.

I loved the format of "Children of Earth." If season 4 is only 5 episodes long, so be it. It made for an excellent story.

I'm just so sad about all the characters that have died. Seriously, where do we go from here? I must give them credit for taking risks like that with the characters.

I'm guessing they don't want to announce series 4 until after the Doctor Who specials,

Spoiler: Torchwood series 3

because it would give away Jack's return. Da Man aka Ianto is definitely dead

, and apparently RTD doesn't like them being a well kitted up agency against it, he likes them going up against bigger odds than that.

 

[Lindley]

Would you mind spoiler-coding a few bits of that for those of us who haven't seen season 3 yet?

 

[Bob The Skutter]

Would you mind spoiler-coding a few bits of that for those of us who haven't seen season 3 yet?

My apologies, I didn't think.

 

[The Castellan]

Always loved Captain Jack. Would love to see him on Trek, he'd have Kirk's record of womanizing broken....if he does not go after Kirk first.

My only regret is they killed Toshiko.

 

[Bluesteel]

I only actually saw 1 season of Torchwood. CoE. I was going to watch the other one but a friend of mine who is a big Who fan watched it and he saw Captain Jack have sex with an another man.


Yeah, I don't want my mind scarred. The damage from Queer as Folk just got repaired.

 

[Tribble]

Always loved Captain Jack. Would love to see him on Trek, he'd have Kirk's record of womanizing broken....if he does not go after Kirk first.

Maybe there's fanfiction for that.