Garak in the episode "In the Pale Moonlight" (I know there's probably other threads)

[DonIago]

I think Sisko knew that involving Garak was a risk but that he also didn't feel he could involve anyone else, and he didn't consciously expect or anticipate Garak's Plan B.

I think in part he's angry that Garak didn't tell him what he was planning, even as I'm sure another part of him is relieved that he can take comfort in the fact that he didn't know what Garak was going to do.

It's funny to think that if it was Picard in command of DS9 then the AQ might have lost the Dominion War, because it seems far less likely that Picard could have brought himself to dirty his hands in this manner.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I would submit that you’re taking the “white space” thing way too literally and that it was not supposed to mean Sisko would now be spending the rest of his existence with the Prophets in that environment.

I would also be interested to get a quote supporting the idea that the Prophets were somehow punishing Sisko “for his warmongering”. Or punishing him for anything, for that matter. Looking at the transcript on Chakoteya these are some lines of dialog relevant to why they have taken Sisko to be with them:

There is a more direct answer from Sacrifice of Angels: by involving the Prophets, he is given a penance. However, a penance is not a punishment. Bring separated from Bajor, following another path, is necessarily better than whatever punishment would be meted out.

 

[Orac]

I would submit that you’re taking the “white space” thing way too literally and that it was not supposed to mean Sisko would now be spending the rest of his existence with the Prophets in that environment.

I would also be interested to get a quote supporting the idea that the Prophets were somehow punishing Sisko “for his warmongering”. Or punishing him for anything, for that matter. Looking at the transcript on Chakoteya these are some lines of dialog relevant to why they have taken Sisko to be with them:

I don't recall the exact line, but what I do recall is when Sisko convinced the Prophets to destroy the Dominion armada before it invaded the Federation he was told there was a penance to pay, which I presumed was the forced absence from his family in the finale.

Here's the sequence I recalled copied from chakoteya.net:

[Bridge]

SISKO: This isn't what I meant. I want to return to my reality.
DAMAR: You are the Sisko.
SISKO: I am also a Starfleet captain. I have a job to do and I intend to do it.
WEYOUN: The Sisko is belligerent.
DUKAT: Aggressive.
DAMAR: Adversarial.
SISKO: You're damn right I'm adversarial. You have no right to interfere with my life.

[Ops]

KIRA: We have every right.
SISKO: Fine. You want to interfere, then interfere. Do something about those Dominion reinforcements.
ODO: That is a corporeal matter.
DUKAT: Corporeal matters do not concern us.
SISKO: The hell they don't. What about Bajor? You can't tell me Bajor doesn't concern you. You've sent the Bajorans orbs and Emissaries. You've even encouraged them to create an entire religion around you. You even told me once that you were of Bajor. So don't you tell me you're not concerned with corporeal matters. I don't want to see Bajor destroyed. Neither do you. But we all know that's exactly what's going to happen if the Dominion takes over the Alpha Quadrant. You say you don't want me to sacrifice my life? Well, fine, neither do I. You want to be gods, then be gods. I need a miracle. Bajor needs a miracle. Stop those ships.
WEYOUN: We are of Bajor.
DAMAR: But what of the Sisko?
ODO: He is intrusive.
DUKAT: He tries to control the game.
JAKE: A penance must be exacted.
WEYOUN: It is agreed.
DUKAT: The Sisko is of Bajor, but he will find no rest there.
KIRA: (touches Sisko's left ear) His pagh will follow another path.
SISKO: What path is that?

And yes you're right about me taking the white space too literally. That'll be my autistic brain missing the nuance which it tends to do occasionally. i.e. when I've had a stressful day the cognitive rigidity sets in. Sorry.

 

[fireproof78]

Trusting Garak is a fool's errand. But, as he notes to Sisko, that's why he approached Garak in the first place.

Despicable? Yes, but Wars often are.

 

[Toril Toran]

Garek once said “ A plan, within a plan, within a plan.”

He is an interesting character. I even like him. But, I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him.

 

[Michael]

I don't recall the exact line, but what I do recall is when Sisko convinced the Prophets to destroy the Dominion armada before it invaded the Federation he was told there was a penance to pay, which I presumed was the forced absence from his family in the finale.

Here's the sequence I recalled copied from chakoteya.net:


And yes you're right about me taking the white space too literally. That'll be my autistic brain missing the nuance which it tends to do occasionally. i.e. when I've had a stressful day the cognitive rigidity sets in. Sorry.

Had completely forgotten about that bit from “Sacrifice of Angels”. My bad. Truth be told, I always thought that whole storyline with Sisko and the Prophets became really muddy towards the end, making it really obvious that the writers were mostly making this up as they went along.

And no reason at all to be sorry.

 

[Lynx]

Spending eternity in a bright white room with no windows seems mildly unpleasant to me.
If memory serves even the Prophets called it a penance for his warmongering.

Sisko wasn't a warmonger.
he fought because the Dominion attacked the Alpha Quadrant.

So, suppose Sisko had chosen to keep his moral integrity intact. Without the Romulans on their side, the Federation can't hold its own in the fight against the Dominion War, and they have to surrender. Weyoun implements his plan getting all of earth's population exterminated.

Exactly.

Was it worth it?

Yes it was!

After all, the contention of Star Trek (TOS+TNG) up till DS9 was was there was always a way to escape from an impossible situation. Usually by being particularly clever, by outreasoning or outmaneuvering your enemy, or by exploiting an unsuspected weak spot. But always 'clean' ways. DS9 (imho) asks the question what you do when there isn't such a clean way out and the only option to survive is to play it dirty.

Then you have to play it dirty!

Always liked Garak. You have no idea what his intentions are, if he can be trusted, or what his end game is.

Yes, that was what made him so interesting in this series.
I often wondered about both Garak and Dukat. Will they end up onn the good side or the bad side?

There were times when it looked like Dukat would become a good guy, like when he cooperated with Kira to find his daughetr and thereafter. But then he did show his true colors.

Garak on the other hand ended up on the good side. Maybe he realized that his beloved Cardassia was on the wrong way.

Anyway, I find Garak a fascinating character.
My favorite character in Star trek together with Kes, Gowron, Quark and Q.

 

[Toril Toran]

My favorites would be Q, Garek, Quark, and Worf. And Jadzia. And Kira. And Rom’s wife Lita.
I think that’s it. Maybe

 

[kkt]

How?

He was rescued from a fiery death and allowed to live some non-corporeal life until some unknown time when he will become corporeal again. There is no indication that there was any pain. There is no indication a punishment was meted out on him for the death of Vreenak. The only suffering he experienced was a product of his conscience, as Garak said, as the state clearly didn't care.

His punishment is things he didn't get: to see his child with Kassidy born and grow, to see Kassidy again, to see Jake or Joseph any more. To help Bajor recover after the war.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

His punishment is things he didn't get: to see his child with Kassidy born and grow, to see Kassidy again, to see Jake or Joseph any more. To help Bajor recover after the war.

He suffered a penance (not punishment) for his insolence dealing with the prophets, not his involvement in the Vreenak assassination.

 

[Tosk]

His punishment is things he didn't get: to see his child with Kassidy born and grow, to see Kassidy again, to see Jake or Joseph any more. To help Bajor recover after the war.

You're assuming those things. Sisko may have returned from his time with the Prophets yesterday.

 

[fireproof78]

Garek once said “ A plan, within a plan, within a plan.”

He is an interesting character. I even like him. But, I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him.

I could not like him. He's a scoundrel who gets rewarded for it. He used Sisko as much as Sisko used Garak and their ability to slide their plan through is an interesting study in the desperation of war.

 

[Tosk]

Garak once said “ A plan, within a plan, within a plan.”

When was that?

 

[Toril Toran]

Actually I misquoted. The general saying among Cardassians is: “A plan, within a plan, within a plan, leading to a trap.”

 

[Tosk]

Actually I misquoted. The general saying among Cardassians is: “A plan, within a plan, within a plan, leading to a trap.”

That wasn't a saying among Cardassians, that was a Klingon describing fighting Cardassians. (Leskit from Soldiers of the Empire)

 

[Lynx]

His punishment is things he didn't get: to see his child with Kassidy born and grow, to see Kassidy again, to see Jake or Joseph any more. To help Bajor recover after the war.

But was it really so?
Maybe he was back on the station after a few months.

 

[kkt]

But was it really so?
Maybe he was back on the station after a few months.

They didn't explicitly say, but the way he was talking about it, to me it sounded more like he'd pop up in an occassional vision from the prophets rather than quality time.

 

[Lynx]

They didn't explicitly say, but the way he was talking about it, to me it sounded more like he'd pop up in an occassional vision from the prophets rather than quality time.

I got the impression that he would stay for a certain period to learn and then come back.
Since those Prophets could overcome time, he could stay there for a couple of years and they they would send him back in time to the day after he left Deep Space Nine.
For Kasidy and Jake, he would only be away for a day or so.
Definitely a concept I would have used if I had been responsible for the DS9 Relaunch books.