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I don't know how I feel about Torchwood

But which group will die in place of the many? There is absolutely no just way for any government to select the members of such a group. The only just way to assemble such a group would be to ask for volunteers. Would you volunteer to be sent to the 456?

Would I volunteer? Trust me I'm way too old the 456 would send me back right away. :) My initial gut feeling would be no I wouldn't, however I don't think any of us can truly know what we would do in such a situation until the chips were actually down.



To my knowledge, none of these instances involve a government slaughtering people that they considered to be "their own." These massacres were perpetrated against some "other" that they had convinced themselves was the enemy or in some way inhuman. PM Green orchestrated the deaths of what were, ostensibly, his own people. In historical terms, this might make him even more horrific than Hitler and perhaps on par with Stalin or Pol Pot.

Personally, I don't share your grim assessment of humanity. I think it takes a special kind of monster to conceive the plans for an orderly genocide.

Many of those put to death by the Nazis were German citizens, they might have been defined as others as you put it, by virtue of being Jewish, but they were still German. By the same token Green was picking an other too; the underachieving, the underclass whatever you want to call it. He was using a justification to discreminate against his own the same as Hitler did. To suggest Green is somehow worst than Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe etc makes little sense. They all killed 'their own' in one way or another.

I like to think I have a realistic assesment of humanity. As a species we are capable of the most base horrors, but also of truly wonderful kindness and sacrifice.


I never said that the Bush administration acted appropriately when administering torture. I suspect there were numerous imperfections in the process of determining the guilt or innocence of the suspects. All I was arguing was that there is nothing wrong, in principle, with torturing people who deserve to be tortured.

The other question is, "How do you determine who does or doesn't deserve to be tortured?" It's a separate, much trickier issue (and irrelevant to the argument at hand, IMO, although I'd be happy to hear your thoughts on the subject).

Well personally I'd query whether anyone deserved to be tortured? Torture is rarely an effective intelligence gathering tool and, quite frankly, even if it were it is surely barbaric and something that all people who claim to be civilised should abhor (no matter what Jack Bauer says).


What exactly is "the moral high ground"?

The ability to turn around to your opponant and say we are better than you because we won't torture our enemies, we won't rape their wives or eat their children.


In practice, can a government protect all its citizens at all times? Of course not. However, at the very least, I think it is imperative that we have equal protection under the law. There is a difference between a government failing to protect its citizens due to limited resources and a government specifically singling out citizens to die for the "good" of the "whole." Otherwise, what's next? In times of great famine, shall the government also be permitted to determine which citizens shall be cannibalized and turned into soylent green?

As I've said before. If there were a virulant plague, and the government (any government) did not have the vaccine for eveyone, then any government will make decisions over who gets it and who doesn't.


I suspect you're largely right. However, what of the lazier, more reluctant members of the Royal Family? If they refuse to cooperate, will the government go to their houses with guns and force them to surrender their lives for the greater good? Somehow, I suspect the government's outlook would become far less utilitarian in such circumstances.

Why? In the same situation the government's outlook would be little different. If it's kill the queen or kill humanity do you really think Green's decision would have been different? The only differences are that the Queen would have better protection than the average 10 year old (although you never know in this day and age) but also that the queen would be capable of making the decision to sacrifice herself, something a child cannot do.

Do you seriously think that Jack wouldn't have sacrificed himself instead if that were possible? We've already got at least a couple clear examples of Jack risking his life to save others, such as when he went up against that giant death-shadow monster in "End of Days." Or, for a pre-immortality example, he was quite eager to put himself on the front lines fighting the Daleks in "The Parting of the Ways."

"It's ok," said the indestructable Jack. "I'll handle this!"
 
Point to ponder, if it hasn't been mentioned already: it wasn't just that they were sparing their own kids, but were condemning whole schools of kids they thought were the equivalent of "white trash", in their ever so worthy and o so humble opinion.
 
Point to ponder, if it hasn't been mentioned already: it wasn't just that they were sparing their own kids, but were condemning whole schools of kids they thought were the equivalent of "white trash", in their ever so worthy and o so humble opinion.

Yeah it's been mentioned a few times (231547 at last count :lol:)
 
Point to ponder, if it hasn't been mentioned already: it wasn't just that they were sparing their own kids, but were condemning whole schools of kids they thought were the equivalent of "white trash", in their ever so worthy and o so humble opinion.

Yeah it's been mentioned a few times (231547 at last count :lol:)
Yeah. :) Just reiterating for TBC in case it wasn't mentioned in this thread.
 
To my knowledge, none of these instances involve a government slaughtering people that they considered to be "their own." These massacres were perpetrated against some "other" that they had convinced themselves was the enemy or in some way inhuman. PM Green orchestrated the deaths of what were, ostensibly, his own people. In historical terms, this might make him even more horrific than Hitler and perhaps on par with Stalin or Pol Pot.

Personally, I don't share your grim assessment of humanity. I think it takes a special kind of monster to conceive the plans for an orderly genocide.

Many of those put to death by the Nazis were German citizens, they might have been defined as others as you put it, by virtue of being Jewish, but they were still German. By the same token Green was picking an other too; the underachieving, the underclass whatever you want to call it. He was using a justification to discreminate against his own the same as Hitler did. To suggest Green is somehow worst than Pol Pot, Mao, Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe etc makes little sense. They all killed 'their own' in one way or another.

Green is certainly in a different class than some of those, I'll grant. Still, Green never made any open statement that he was selecting certain children because they were an "other." On the contrary, under any other circumstances, he would embrace their patronage. Which is more monstrous? To order the systematic executions of people that even you consider to be innocents? Or to plot the genocide of a race that your diseased brain considers unfit to live?

But ultimately, in the case of PM Green, I think Pol Pot is the most apt comparison. Pol Pot slaughtered many of his own people in the process of "reeducating" them for "their own good."

I like to think I have a realistic assesment of humanity. As a species we are capable of the most base horrors, but also of truly wonderful kindness and sacrifice.

I'd agree that humans are capable of reverting to brutal tactics (or at least turning a blind eye to them) in the name of survival. However, I think very few people are so bereft of morality that they could be the central architect of such an injustice. "As a species," I don't think we can make that kind of generalization. I could never plan an arbitrary genocide. I hope to god you're not saying that you are capable of such a thing.

Well personally I'd query whether anyone deserved to be tortured? Torture is rarely an effective intelligence gathering tool and, quite frankly, even if it were it is surely barbaric and something that all people who claim to be civilised should abhor (no matter what Jack Bauer says).

You're dealing with 3 different questions here:
1.) Does anyone deserve to be tortured?
2.) Is torture effective?
3.) Does torture morally harm the people who perpetrate it or sanction it?

My answers:
1.) Yes, there are, at least theoretically, people in this world who are such absolute bastards that they deserve to be tortured. (However, I'd speculate that only God really knows who those people are.)
2.) I'm not sure, though I'd wager usually not. Ironically, torture would probably be most effective against those who didn't deserve it.
3.) I don't know. Probably only if you're torturing people that don't deserve it. (That's not to say that torture doesn't psychologically harm the people who perpetrate it or that it can severely damage the soft power of a nation that employs it.)

["The Moral High Ground" is] The ability to turn around to your opponant and say we are better than you because we won't torture our enemies, we won't rape their wives or eat their children.

Well, I've never been arguing from a position of personal moral superiority. I'm as flawed as any man. I don't expect anyone to agree with me because I'm a good guy. I expect people to be swayed by the justness of the arguments.

As I've said before. If there were a virulant plague, and the government (any government) did not have the vaccine for eveyone, then any government will make decisions over who gets it and who doesn't.

And as I've said before, this is an inaccurate analogy. There is a difference between a government trying and failing to allocate a precious resource to all of society and a government selecting specific individuals to die for the good of society. A more apt anology would be this: Suppose, in order to create this vaccine that will save billions of people, they first needed 100,000 people on which to perform fatal medical experiments.

Regardless of how great the needs of the state are, they cannot possibly trump an individual's inalienable right to life & liberty. No government can have this kind of authority over its citizens and any government that does is unjust.
 
I'd also note, Starkers, that you're using 2 completely different, contradictory philosophies in your argument. You use utilitarianism to justify PM Green sacrificing the children to the 456. However, it seems you're using a primarily anti-utilitarian argument to say that torture is wrong under all circumstances.
 
Well actually I'm just falling into the hypocritical trap that the suffering of one person is easier to comprehend than the suffering of millions

The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many! :lol:

By the way you're obviously making the same contradiction in reverse!!

I'm not happy comparing Green to any of those genocidal dictators to be honest, he has more in common with a Nazi era bureacrat. This wasn't a leader who was elected to power with an agenda to wipe out a oparticulat social group, rather a man who found himself and his government in a situation where they felt they had to sacrifice 10% of their nation's children and then made the decision to attempt to take the 10% who would probably contribute less to society overall. As you say though does that make it better or worse, well who can say but if one were to look at it compeltely rationally, then surely history would treat Green better than a Hitler or a Stalin. In fact the best comparison that comes to mind is Anton Karidian in TOS's The Concience of the King.

I don't see how torture can ever be right outside of the hypothetical 'terrorist A has planted a nuke in London and you need to find it ASAP' scenario. Does that mean I'd quibble if a member of my family was held hostage and the only way to save them was to torture someone? Probably not, but it woul;d never be right, and one would have to have serious concerns about any human being who could torture anyone rationally and clinically. And as for someone bad deserving torture...well where do you draw the line? Does a bad person deserve murder? (I'm assuming as you're a gun loving American your views on the death penalty are obvious but go on, surprise me!) how about rape? Dismemberment? It's less of a hop skip and a jump from American justice to Saudi/Chinese/Iranian justice than you might like to believe. And again who is bad enough to deserve torture, and who makes that decision? You, a court of law, a police officer, a soldier?

Could I plan a genocide? well outside of hypothetically as a writer (in the same way I could plan a murder) no I couldn't. But what Green and co was doing wasn't a planned genocide (at the risk of being pedantic it wasn't genocide as such--the UN define genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group” and the kids in question would have crossed those boundaries) it was banal, bureacratic escalation within an unparralleled set of circumstances, much like America's use of torture/illegal detention or Britain's use of concentration camps against the Boars. That still doesn't make it right, but it needs to be examined in a different context to Rwanda or the Holocaust.
 
By the way you're obviously making the same contradiction in reverse!!

No, I'm not. I haven't been making a utilitarian argument in either instance. PM Green can't force the children to be sacrificed to the 456 because these children did not deserve to singled out for such a horrific fate and because he was forcing them to do something that he was not willing to consider for his own children. Similarly, torture is only morally permissible if the suspect in question deserves to be tortured.

I'm not happy comparing Green to any of those genocidal dictators to be honest, he has more in common with a Nazi era bureacrat. This wasn't a leader who was elected to power with an agenda to wipe out a oparticulat social group, rather a man who found himself and his government in a situation where they felt they had to sacrifice 10% of their nation's children and then made the decision to attempt to take the 10% who would probably contribute less to society overall. As you say though does that make it better or worse, well who can say but if one were to look at it compeltely rationally, then surely history would treat Green better than a Hitler or a Stalin.

Perhaps. However, at least Hitler & Stalin might have the insanity defense in their favor.

I don't see how torture can ever be right outside of the hypothetical 'terrorist A has planted a nuke in London and you need to find it ASAP' scenario.

And it seems you're just as quick to abandon your vague anti-utilitarian prohibitions against torture for a utilitarian pro-torture argument once the stakes get high enough. If torture is inherently wrong, then it must be wrong in all circumstances.

Does that mean I'd quibble if a member of my family was held hostage and the only way to save them was to torture someone? Probably not, but it woul;d never be right, and one would have to have serious concerns about any human being who could torture anyone rationally and clinically. And as for someone bad deserving torture...well where do you draw the line? Does a bad person deserve murder? (I'm assuming as you're a gun loving American your views on the death penalty are obvious but go on, surprise me!) how about rape? Dismemberment? It's less of a hop skip and a jump from American justice to Saudi/Chinese/Iranian justice than you might like to believe. And again who is bad enough to deserve torture, and who makes that decision? You, a court of law, a police officer, a soldier?

Morally, if it is OK for the government to imprison people and deprive them of their liberty, why is it immoral to torture or execute them?

From a practical standpoint, the government is an imperfect arbiter of justice and it may not be in the best interests of society for it to have the power to mete out irreversible punishments.

But what Green and co was doing wasn't a planned genocide (at the risk of being pedantic it wasn't genocide as such--the UN define genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group” and the kids in question would have crossed those boundaries) it was banal, bureacratic escalation within an unparralleled set of circumstances, much like America's use of torture/illegal detention or Britain's use of concentration camps against the Boars. That still doesn't make it right, but it needs to be examined in a different context to Rwanda or the Holocaust.

OK, perhaps Green's actions aren't technically "genocide" and should simply be referred to as "mass murder."

Still, what bothers me about Green is his very select use of utilitarianism in these circumstances, especially when utilitarianism has been almost universally rejected as a primary governing principle. And utilitarianism is the only philosophy that I am aware of that would possibly condone what he was doing.

I'm unfamiliar with Britain's use of concentration camps against the Boers. Enlighten me. (Is it anything like the U.S.'s use of internment camps for its citizens of Japanese descent during WWII?)
 
I'm unfamiliar with Britain's use of concentration camps against the Boers. Enlighten me. (Is it anything like the U.S.'s use of internment camps for its citizens of Japanese descent during WWII?)

Kinda, and they weren't intended for use as concentration camps in the way the Nazis used them, but an awful lot of people died (neglect rather than intent but it still happened)

Will respond to other bits when am feeling more awake :)
 
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