How would you change the show?

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Voyager' started by Admiral Jean-Luc Picard, Oct 14, 2020.

  1. Sisko_is_my_captain

    Sisko_is_my_captain Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's an interesting idea. Establish a second Federation and when the two encounter, they can merge. Like Federation metastasis.
     
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  2. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Very interesting thought... would you have had them get home at the end? Or would they have stayed behind? Or would it have varied by character?
     
  3. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I myself would never have gotten them home...because that would no longer be the focus of the show. It would be about the crew trying to make a new home and trying to instill the values of the Federation there, with the intent to forge an alliance with the local alien races. The result of which being that in the far future, when the Federation eventually reaches the Delta Quadrant, they would find a second Federation there as a result of the actions of the Voyager crew centuries before.
     
  4. Sisko_is_my_captain

    Sisko_is_my_captain Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    The final episode could be the message Voyager sends to Earth, "...and although we ourselves will never return home, it seems that we have begun to create another home here, in the Delta Quadrant. And one day, when the Federation extends their reach this far, they will not encounter strange new worlds and new civilizations...they will instead be greeted by our children, welcoming them home again.
     
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  5. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    I get the sense that Discovery is doing something like that, only with the separation being 900 years instead of 70k light years: bringing (back) the Federation to a place where it was not.
     
  6. Dukhat

    Dukhat Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Yes, but I had my idea long before DSC season 3 ;)
     
  7. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    And it was a good one. Which is why it got used, in a sense.
     
  8. amp

    amp Commander Red Shirt

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    It's also reminiscent of Andromeda's plot arc. Another show where a lone ship had to reestablish the Federation, er I mean the Systems Commonwealth. At least that was the plot until Robert Hewitt Wolfe was forced out and the show became 'Hercules in Space'.
     
  9. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Speaking of spawning a new Federation, look at what they did with the Ferengi. NOT talking about female equality, since that was inevitable (even in the 90's); I just wish it had relied more on courageous and determined Ferengi women and less on Ishka seducing Zek. But look at the end: the Alliance's rampant capitalism is being dismantled, the Nagus's autocracy is gone, and the father of Starfleet's first Ferengi is running the show now. Any bets on how long before the Ferengi join the Federation?
     
  10. Tracy Trek

    Tracy Trek Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Yes I would have liked it if Tuvix could have been saved and still get Neelix and Tuvok back. A fanfiction by Jamelia116 on Fanfiction.net and Archive of Our Own deals with this idea. They find a planet with similar atmospheric conditions as the one that duplicated Riker and they clone Tuvix. The 2 Tuvix's draw straws to see who will be sacrificed and the one that does give up his life calls himself Neevok. The story is called His Fathers' Son. And then there's a longer story called the The Personal Logs of Lt. Tuvix.
     
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  11. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    You know, if Riker's "duplication" accident were easily replicable, it would potentially make everyone on the show endlessly disposable.
    1. Every away team has a spare pattern generated and stored in the buffer, which can hold, say, six people.
    2. If they survive, the pattern is allowed to dissipate upon their return.
    3. If they die, the pattern is accessed and voila: instant restoration. They lose nothing except the memory of the away mission.

    Maybe it's a good thing that it's not, even if it meant no more Tuvix. Too big a can of worms.
     
  12. Jonesy

    Jonesy Commodore Commodore

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    The first one I can name off of the top of my head:

    Don't abandon the premise. This is self explanatory. The show would have been vastly different as a result.

    I would have also avoided all of the cliche's and bad approach to Chakotay's Native American ancestry.

    No catsuit for Seven of Nine. Jeri Ryan is hot as hell just breathing and with regular clothes on.

    No infinite resources on the ship/infinite shuttlecraft. The reality of how perilous their situation was was often glossed over.
     
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  13. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    WRT to changing the show, I agree with what a lot of folks have said already. Some have suggested radical changes, but I'll stick with what I think are the fewest and most critical modifications that I would've made to the elements of the existing show. Again, some of these are just repeats of what others here so eloquently said before, so I'm just agreeing with them.

    1. Base Chakotay's character on a real tribe and treat is seriously. Having the first Native American character on a ST show was a great idea, but the writers screwed up both in the background, the execution, and, imo, the casting as well. I never liked or cared for Chakotay much.

    2. Get rid of Neelix. I never liked the character. If you're going to have a Delta Quadrant Guide, which is a good idea, just rethink the entire character. I found the character tremendously irritating.

    3. Rethink Kes. Like a lot of ST characters, I just don't think this character was well conceived and, in the end executed. It's a shame, Ms. Lien looked like she could really act and she was just saddled with, imo, a poorly thought out character that wasn't well written by the writers, who admitted they had failed with the character. They blew it, not Ms. Lien. It's kind of like the situation with Marina Sirtis' Deanna Troi. Both characters, Kes and Troi, had a lot of empathy for others and were used to bring out other characters' feelings. Troi was a psychologist who was on the bridge, something writer Ronald Moore said was very 80s and ridiculous. She often stated obvious things about the adversaries encountered by the Enterprise that Picard could obviously figure out all on his own. Sirtis even said that she expected to be cut from the show. And yet, now that I've finished rewatching TNG season 2 and have started on Season 3, I'm seeing how despite these limitations, the writers found ways to use Troi's character effectively. Yes, the psychologist on the ship and kids on a ship were, imo (and Ron Moore's), bad, progressive ideas from Rodenberry, but, like the no-drama rule that Roddenberry had, Michael Pillar, Ron Moore, and the rest made it work and Troi became a well regarded character.

    So maybe Kes' character could've been saved by the Voyager writers. Kes even had greater psychic powers than Troi. In the end though, the writers really dropped the ball.

    And, again, I, like someone else said, never ever liked the romantic Kes-Neelix relationship, especially given the ridiculous 9 year lifetime of Kes. With all news about widespread pedophilia in religious institutions, youth sports, the Boy Scouts, I just think the whole relationship, especially now, looks really really bad. I wouldn't be surprised if Jeri Taylor and the other writers feel differently now.

    To be fair, I think the writers did try to change the direction of Kes' character in Season 3 by breaking her off from Neelix and making her more independent. That was a good choice, but, in the end, I guess they gave up on the character.
     
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  14. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    4. Fully exploit the premise of the show. Others have said it, but I'll say it again (sorry). Make Voyager's trip hard. They have no SF support. They have two crews who don't like each other shoved together. Beat the ship up, have far far more friction between the two crews, and kill off some characters and replace them with new ones, like they did with Kes and Seven. It would help to keep the show fresh. Change the Voyager model. They did that a bit for some episodes.

    Ronald Moore was right. He came on board Voyager and felt like they needed to do more with the premise. Braga with Year of Hell was heading in the right direction too. Based on the interviews though, Paramount and/or Rick Berman didn't want the show to be dark. They wanted it to be more like TNG and, in the end, that's what they got.

    5. Kill Harry Kim off. I never liked the character, he was too whiny.
     
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  15. Oddish

    Oddish Commodore Fleet Captain

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    Killing off Harry would have worked very well, I hate to say. He was a static figure, really judged more by his relationships with other characters like Tom and Janeway. Given their probable reactions, his loss would actually create a tremendous impact in their development as characters. And what do we lose? A character who's basically a very durable redshirt.

    Be that as it may, there were alternatives to killing him.
    1. Develop him. Have him start out as a snot nosed newbie ensign, then have him become more mature and hardened from his experiences. As he grows, have him rank up. By journey's end, he a seasoned, confident officer with two gold pips on his collar.
    2. Make a change in him. That alien retrovirus he picks up in "Favorite Son"... make it permanent. Have him transform into an alien, with new abilities and personality traits. Allow Garrett Wang a chance to stretch a bit.
    3. Eliminate him non-lethally. "Non Sequitur" provided a potential way. It really made no sense that Harry, so painfully eager to get home, suddenly IS home... and it didn't occur to him to just celebrate his good fortune, build shuttles, make lieutenant, drink Vulcan Mocha, marry Libby, raise rug rats, and live happily ever after. Why not throw us a curve ball and have that happen?
     
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  16. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    "Durable Redshirt" is a great way of putting it.

    Great suggestions too.
     
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  17. Voth commando1

    Voth commando1 Commodore Commodore

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    Some things I'd change.

    -I'd try to establish earlier that Neelix is a deeply traumatized person, and that his friendly alien guide persona is just a front to hide his pain. (Not that he isn't still an extremely helpful and friendly person, its just he comes across less gratingly to the audience).
    -I'd probably go with a Harry/7 romance. Something teased pretty early on, and I think works pretty well.
    -For Janeway, I'd write her generally the same.
    -Emphasize the ensemble more, especially in the later seasons, as well as the theme of Voyager as family.
    -I'd scrap Threshold-and maybe replace it with some sort of "Tom Paris and B'lanna try to revolutionize space travel and end up going to another dimension" or something, the crew has to rescue them,or convince them to return from this higher dimension. (Same basic starting idea, minus the amphibian babies).
    -Probably include a few Dominion War references, in Season 5 or 6. Could make it an interesting subplot-does Janeway tell the crew the Federation might not exist if the war goes bad when they get there? Maybe also have her try to send schematics or something. (Given the timeframe, this would have to be in season 3-4). Would tie the shows together more, while also establishing Voyager is really cut off and can't do much to help the Federation.
    -Do more with some of the side characters, Vorik, Carey, Ensign Wildman, and Naomi of course. Not sure how much, but I'd try to work at least Vorik in more.
     
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  18. Lynx

    Lynx Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I totally agree on Ckakotay. It was just laziness and lack of interest in the characters from the "writers" that they didn't bother to come up with a real tribe for Chakotay. Otherwise I really like Chakotay who is my second favorite in the series after Kes.

    Getting rid of Neelix! :eek:
    No way!
    Here we have one of the few genuine characters in Star Trek, a guy who suffers the most horrible experience which affects his life and turns him into a bit of a nutcase. But despite all that, he actually manage to keep his sanity, contribute to the crew and doing what he can to be friendly and create a good atmosphere among the crew. OK, he had some serious issues, like his jealousy and the constant whims he came up with like that "journalist" thing. But I couldn't imagine the series without him.

    As for Kes, I should have got rid of that nine-year lifespan thing as soon as possible with the help of Suspiria, The Doctor or Q. It was limiting for the character and it was more and more shoved in the background the longer the series progressed, only brought up from time to time in lack of other ideas. I would have focused on Kes's personality, her way of dealing with obstacles by simply moving around them and attack them from another view, her wit, determination, curiosity, smartness and being brave and calm in difficult siuations.

    I would have kept some of her psychic powers but kept them limited, like in "Persistence Of Vision" when she manage to stop the Bothan from taking over the ship, nothing more. What Voyager didn't need was some character with super-powers, it was close enough with Seven later on.

    As for the Kes-Neelix relationship, I think it was OK from the beginning, at least as introduction of the characters and how and why neelix wanted to rescue her from the Kazon. But I would have ended it in season 2, around or shortly after "Parturition" when it was obvious that Neelix's jealousy and over-protection of her simply had gone too far. But I wouldn't have ended it in the ridiculous way the "writers" did in "Warlord" (which otherwise was a great episode) but during two or three episodes in which it would have been better described why the relationship ended.

    I agree about your statement that they did try to change the direction of the character in season 3 which was OK. I always got the impression when I watched tjhose episodes that Kes would become more important for the storyy from there on so I was surprised, shocked and dissapointed when they all of a sudden just dropped her. You state that "they gave up on the character". Well, I would say that they weren't doing their job and should have been fired.

    As for killing of main characters, no, no, and no again. It was bad enough with dumping Kes. There are some series I've stopped watching because a main character has been dumped and replaced by someone I don't like and I guess that i'm not alone there. People who watch a show want some sort of continuity and also thake a liking to certain characters. Killing of them would mean lost interest from many fans.

    What I have liked to see in Voyager were more recurring characters. DS9 had a lot of such characters, like Garak, Nog, Winn, Dukat, Weyoun etc. That would have been even more appropriate for Voyager with the same crew on the same ship during a long journey. They had some really great characters which could have been used that way, llike Carey, Rollins, Dalby, Henley, Gerron, Chell, Vorik, Samantha Wildman. They could have been used more than they actually did. It would have been nice to see how Dalby and the others from "Learning Curve" progressed during the long journey.

    As for Ron Moore, I wish that Voyager had had s writing staff like those who wrote for DS9, writers who could use the wonderful materiel they had in the characters and the premise of the show to come up with new and exciting ideas. berman and the others couldn't do that. OK, they did come up with some really great episodes here and there but there were a lot of sloppines and lack of continuity in their writing.

    Kill off Harry Kim?
    No!
    They could have made him better. I don't know if you have read any of the season 1-3 Voyager books. In many of them Harry is actually doing something and plays and important role in solving problems and helping out. OK, there is some of the "whipping boy scenario" even there, like the times he's seriously injured and/or being close to death which happen in some of the books. But he's more interesting in the books than in the series.
     
  19. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One thing I'd have done is make Harry an alien from the very beginning, either from an existing but little know species or create a new Federation species, that way once his rookie status becomes defunct after a year or two (at the latest) then at least he'd have a more interesting origin to explore other than generic human culture stock.
     
  20. rocketscientist

    rocketscientist Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    1. Yeah, kill Neelix or eliminate him altogether and replace him with a better conceived Delta Quadrant representative. Sorry, I found the character grating and irritating and I thoroughly disliked the Neelix-Kes relationship, which, as I said, now looks worse than ever. To me, Neelix is the Jar-Jar Binks of Star Trek (at least with series regulars).

    2. WRT Kes, the writers really didn't do much with the 9 year lifetime thing at all, at least as far as I recall. Heck, it was even cut short when Kes turned into an energy being or whatnot on her exit. Basically, the writers punted the character. It happens in a lot of shows, and it happened with Voyager in the case of Kes. WRT to the writers, I do think it was definitely possible, with suitable changes and a commitment to developing the character more, that Kes could have been saved. For example, as I've already said, I think the Kes character has some traits in common with Troi on TNG. Maybe make Kes the counselor on Voyager so she could interact with more of the crew. Use her more in that role.

    For whatever reason, though, one character apparently had to go and the writers went with Kes. Personally, if it was me, I would've ditched Neelix with no second thoughts, or Kim.

    And, yeah, Warlord was a fun episode. Fury, not so much.

    3. I have to disagree with not killing main characters. Killing or replacing characters does work to keep a show fresh. Witness Law and Order, Doctor Who, or even The Walking Dead. VOY would have been a natural place to do this, being a single ship in a dangerous region of the galaxy. Especially for characters that didn't work or that the writers no longer cared to write for, this is a great way of clearing them out, either by death or just deciding to leave the ship, and replacing them with better ones, as was done, imo by replacing Kes with Seven. Heck, even Neelix left the ship. I wish it had been a lot earlier.

    4. The writers on VOY were either tied up more by Berman and Braga and/or weren't as good as the ones on DS9. From what I read, I think Berman exerted a lot more attention on VOY than DS9. Brannon Braga did what Berman and he himself wanted. They wanted to keep it close to TNG and that's what they got, never mind that it kind of flew in the face of the whole premise of the show. They might as well have just set it on another ship in the Alpha Quadrant.

    5. Nope, I haven't read any of the VOY novels. I haven't read a ST novel since college. I've stuck to hard SF, Michael Moorcock, and now Larry McMurty. On screen though, I dislike Harry Kim. Too nerdy and whiny. Replace him with someone else at OPS.

    Neelix though, is the worst.