How would you change the show?

[fireproof78]

I'm of the opinion that Neelix should have been retooled. He comes across as incredibly inconsistent from scene to scene. He is a bit of a chameleon, which is fine...if the crew isn't automatically trusting him. If you're keeping Neelix then his resourcefulness needs to matter more than just cooking. Make him actually resourceful, able to modify tech to support

Kes should have stayed on. Here you have the potential to truly see an alien point of view with her lifespan (if you keep it) that can really add a small measure of drama to the show. Use her photographic memory in tandem with Neelix that they can actually find their way through the Quadrant or repair tech in unique ways.

Yes to eliminating Chakotay. Keep Seska as the face of the Maquis. Keep that conflict going for about a season. It's OK to have conflict.

Eliminate Harry Kim. Either in the show or just as a character. It's OK to kill characters.

 

[Oddish]

I'm of the opinion that Neelix should have been retooled. He comes across as incredibly inconsistent from scene to scene.

He was actually a bit of an anti-Tuvok, emotional, energetic, and goofy where Tuvok was logical, reserved, and dignified. They were perfect foils. He improved as a character once he and Kes stopped being a thing.

Kes should have stayed on. Here you have the potential to truly see an alien point of view with her lifespan (if you keep it) that can really add a small measure of drama to the show.

They made the decision to concentrate Kes's brief lifetime into one show ("Before and After"): marriage, motherhood, grandparenthood, old age, all of it. It allowed them to be more daring (having Harry bounce baby Linnis on his knee in one episode and then marry her a couple years later would have raised some eyebrows), but we didn't really get to see the whole experience.

Yes to eliminating Chakotay. Keep Seska as the face of the Maquis.

I think that snuffing Chakotay could have worked, actually. Especially if he died saving the captain, for whom it's obvious he had genuine feelings for. Janeway could have grieved for the loss of the love that she could not acknowledge. With an actress of Kate Mulgrew's caliber, it would have been heartbreaking.

Further, wiping the first officer would have established that no one was safe from being deleted from the cast. Like that guy from Game of Thrones... it was like "surely they're not actually going to execute hi..." CHOP!!

Eliminate Harry Kim. Either in the show or just as a character. It's OK to kill characters.

Harry tragically dead would have been better for the show than the boring and static version of Harry we got, alive. But a properly developed Harry would have been better still.

 

[fireproof78]

He was actually a bit of an anti-Tuvok, emotional, energetic, and goofy where Tuvok was logical, reserved, and dignified. They were perfect foils. He improved as a character once he and Kes stopped being a thing.

He could be. But, I highly doubt that is how he started out as. And, I guess the foil was nice, but it came at the expense of being able to take the character seriously, save for the occasional moments. Which is a tragedy that it could have been used less for comedy and ore for character building.

They made the decision to concentrate Kes's brief lifetime into one show ("Before and After"): marriage, motherhood, grandparenthood, old age, all of it. It allowed them to be more daring (having Harry bounce baby Linnis on his knee in one episode and then marry her a couple years later would have raised some eyebrows), but we didn't really get to see the whole experience.

Again, a missed opportunity. Kes could have offered a unique view of the journey, even adding a small sense of different urgency if they wanted to share any of Earth (or their homes) with her.

I think that snuffing Chakotay could have worked, actually. Especially if he died saving the captain, for whom it's obvious he had genuine feelings for. Janeway could have grieved for the loss of the love that she could not acknowledge. With an actress of Kate Mulgrew's caliber, it would have been heartbreaking.

Again, potential that was not reflected in the final product.

Harry tragically dead would have been better for the show than the boring and static version of Harry we got, alive. But a properly developed Harry would have been better still.

Again, potential.

And, this might sound like I'm all in on killing characters. It's more that it shouldn't stop the writing staff from at least considering the possibility. Instead, we get very simple stories that will not upset the status quo. All these characters are incredibly strong in the potential side of the Force.

 

[Oddish]

on killing characters. It's more that it shouldn't stop the writing staff from at least considering the possibility. Instead, we get very simple stories that will not upset the status quo. All these characters are incredibly strong in the potential side of the Force.

Sad but true. A Maquis renegade, a fresh faced recruit, a survivor of a virtual genocide, and a character who could have been a microcosm of life itself... none of them developed.

 

[Lynx]

1. Yeah, kill Neelix or eliminate him altogether and replace him with a better conceived Delta Quadrant representative. Sorry, I found the character grating and irritating and I thoroughly disliked the Neelix-Kes relationship, which, as I said, now looks worse than ever. To me, Neelix is the Jar-Jar Binks of Star Trek (at least with series regulars).

2. WRT Kes, the writers really didn't do much with the 9 year lifetime thing at all, at least as far as I recall. Heck, it was even cut short when Kes turned into an energy being or whatnot on her exit. Basically, the writers punted the character. It happens in a lot of shows, and it happened with Voyager in the case of Kes. WRT to the writers, I do think it was definitely possible, with suitable changes and a commitment to developing the character more, that Kes could have been saved. For example, as I've already said, I think the Kes character has some traits in common with Troi on TNG. Maybe make Kes the counselor on Voyager so she could interact with more of the crew. Use her more in that role.

For whatever reason, though, one character apparently had to go and the writers went with Kes. Personally, if it was me, I would've ditched Neelix with no second thoughts, or Kim.

And, yeah, Warlord was a fun episode. Fury, not so much.

3. I have to disagree with not killing main characters. Killing or replacing characters does work to keep a show fresh. Witness Law and Order, Doctor Who, or even The Walking Dead. VOY would have been a natural place to do this, being a single ship in a dangerous region of the galaxy. Especially for characters that didn't work or that the writers no longer cared to write for, this is a great way of clearing them out, either by death or just deciding to leave the ship, and replacing them with better ones, as was done, imo by replacing Kes with Seven. Heck, even Neelix left the ship. I wish it had been a lot earlier.

4. The writers on VOY were either tied up more by Berman and Braga and/or weren't as good as the ones on DS9. From what I read, I think Berman exerted a lot more attention on VOY than DS9. Brannon Braga did what Berman and he himself wanted. They wanted to keep it close to TNG and that's what they got, never mind that it kind of flew in the face of the whole premise of the show. They might as well have just set it on another ship in the Alpha Quadrant.

5. Nope, I haven't read any of the VOY novels. I haven't read a ST novel since college. I've stuck to hard SF, Michael Moorcock, and now Larry McMurty. On screen though, I dislike Harry Kim. Too nerdy and whiny. Replace him with someone else at OPS.

Neelix though, is the worst.

Unfortunately I have to disagree wity you on most points here.

I'm not going to repeat what I wrote in my previous post, just some more comments on some of them.

As for point 3, I strongly dislike the idea of killing off or kicking out good characters. There have been some incidents when that have made me stop watching a series.

I did quit watching Law And Order SVU when they ditched ADA Novak for no reason at all and replaced her with a worthless lookalike. It took at least two seasons until I started to watch it again.

The same with NCIS New Orleans which was a good series from the beginning. Then they, or should I say a certain CBS boss who didn't like Star Trek either ordered the staff to kick out good actress Zoe McLellan (Tal Celes for Voyager fans) and ditch her character because "Big Boss didn't find her f***able" according to several sources ! Well, I wonder if the women at that company found that piece of fat who was the Big Boss "f***able"?

Anyway, McLellan and her character out, replaced by a character I simply can't stand. I continued to watch some episode here and there but the chemistry between the three main characters which were there from the start was gone. When Lucas Black then quit and was a replaced by a total no-no, my patience was gone and I haven't watched a single episode since then. recently, I read that the show will be cancelled and my reaction was "finally they come up with a good decision".

There are other shows as well which I've just stoped watching because of certain changes but I won't go into them here and now because it's out of topic and some of them are unknown for Star Trek fans. The only series I've continued to watch despite some changes is NCIS because it's still so incredible good and most of those actor who have left have done so for well-explained reasons which I can accept, even if I don't like it. But there has been no BS and no fairy tales about "mutual agreements" or "writers who couldn't come up with stories for this or that character".

So I just don't like series where they constantly kill off or kick out good characters. When it comes to Voyager, those characters were too good to be treated like trash.

And tokill off Neelix?
Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!

In this case, I just have to quote myself and what I recently wrote in another thread:


Neelix is actually one of the best Star Trek characters when it comes to depth and realism.

Just consider his tragic background. He was living a happy life with his family on Rinax. All of a sudden all that changed when his family and friends were killed by the Haakonian Metreon Cascade. Now, that could have made anyone lose his or her mind and that happened to Neelix. In fact, he was actually a drug addict for a while but his friend Wixiban helped him out of this (Voyager book "Pathways by Jeri Taylor).

Then he found a new home on Voyager and did all he could to fit in. OK, he definitely had his issues. His annoying jealousy when it came to Kes (which lead to him losing her in the long run), his whims about being Morale Officer, journalist and whatsoever but that was obviously a result of the trauma he had went through. In that way, he was actually more realistic than some of the casual Starfleet cut-out characters who go through life without a scratch.

Not to mention that despite his inner demons, sometimes annoying behavior and despite his exaggerated ways of trying to please, he actually did everything he could to be friendly, helpful and supporing to everyone and as I see it, that makes him admirable in many ways.

"And little Sir Neelix in his colorful clothes
and the Anthraxic Citrus Peel Orange Juice in his glass
And Little Sir Neelix with his Leola Root plate
proved the strongest man at last
Without him, the crew would never have got so much food
without having to steal and loot
And Janeway would never have got the strength to lead the crew
without the little Leola Root"

Last verse from the old English song "John Barleycorn"
Song recorded by Traffic in 1970
and lyrics slightly altered by Lynx 2021

 

[fireproof78]

That's the difference. There are few Voyager characters I'd call good.

 

[Oddish]

Let me be clear, I like Neelix too. He's definitely not the Jar Jar Binks of Trek. He's simply a character whose cheerful nature and civilian status make him good for comic relief. The episode "Once Upon a Time" may take some heat because it's about a little girl, her missing mom, and her worried babysitter, as opposed to some alien threat of the week. But it does show that there is genuine angst and loss behind that cheerful, half-goofy facade.

I've observed that it's often a thing here that remarks get taken the wrong way. I wrote a brief snippet, "5 reasons why Chakotay would have been a better captain than Janeway", and someone accused me of hating women. That surprised me, because not only do I not hate women, I actually like Janeway a lot.

 

[fireproof78]

Let me be clear, I like Neelix too. He's definitely not the Jar Jar Binks of Trek. He's simply a character whose cheerful nature and civilian status make him good for comic relief. The episode "Once Upon a Time" may take some heat because it's about a little girl, her missing mom, and her worried babysitter, as opposed to some alien threat of the week. But it does show that there is genuine angst and loss behind that cheerful, half-goofy facade.

I've observed that it's often a thing here that remarks get taken the wrong way. I wrote a brief snippet, "5 reasons why Chakotay would have been a better captain than Janeway", and someone accused me of hating women. That surprised me, because not only do I not hate women, I actually like Janeway a lot.

I think if Neelix's character had started out as that comic relief then I would be down with him more. But, he was also a "jack of all trades" described character, a guide, a survival expert, etc. There was a lot flung on this character at the outset and it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Not Jar-Jar level (few things will be like that for me) but it was a weird mix. But, that's Voyager in a nutshell.

Neelix had some great moments, some beautiful character moments, and genuinely moving interactions. But, that's not how the character started off and so I would have started him off much differently than what we got.

 

[Oddish]

I think if Neelix's character had started out as that comic relief then I would be down with him more. But, he was also a "jack of all trades" described character, a guide, a survival expert, etc. There was a lot flung on this character at the outset and it left a bitter taste in my mouth. Not Jar-Jar level (few things will be like that for me) but it was a weird mix. But, that's Voyager in a nutshell.

How wude.

 

[rocketscientist]

Unfortunately I have to disagree wity you on most points here.

I'm not going to repeat what I wrote in my previous post, just some more comments on some of them.

As for point 3, I strongly dislike the idea of killing off or kicking out good characters. There have been some incidents when that have made me stop watching a series.

I did quit watching Law And Order SVU when they ditched ADA Novak for no reason at all and replaced her with a worthless lookalike. It took at least two seasons until I started to watch it again.

The same with NCIS New Orleans which was a good series from the beginning. Then they, or should I say a certain CBS boss who didn't like Star Trek either ordered the staff to kick out good actress Zoe McLellan (Tal Celes for Voyager fans) and ditch her character because "Big Boss didn't find her f***able" according to several sources ! Well, I wonder if the women at that company found that piece of fat who was the Big Boss "f***able"?

Anyway, McLellan and her character out, replaced by a character I simply can't stand. I continued to watch some episode here and there but the chemistry between the three main characters which were there from the start was gone. When Lucas Black then quit and was a replaced by a total no-no, my patience was gone and I haven't watched a single episode since then. recently, I read that the show will be cancelled and my reaction was "finally they come up with a good decision".

There are other shows as well which I've just stoped watching because of certain changes but I won't go into them here and now because it's out of topic and some of them are unknown for Star Trek fans. The only series I've continued to watch despite some changes is NCIS because it's still so incredible good and most of those actor who have left have done so for well-explained reasons which I can accept, even if I don't like it. But there has been no BS and no fairy tales about "mutual agreements" or "writers who couldn't come up with stories for this or that character".

So I just don't like series where they constantly kill off or kick out good characters. When it comes to Voyager, those characters were too good to be treated like trash.

You make a valid point that eliminating characters isn't necessarily a good thing. IMO it's a two edge sword. It can work sometimes.

 

[rocketscientist]

That's the difference. There are few Voyager characters I'd call good.

Speaking for myself, I thought Mulgrew's Janeway was great. She had the strength and conviction to show that she could be ST's first leading female captain. I loved Picardo's Doctor. Tom and B'lanna were both likable characters. I wish Tom had been a bit more of a rogue, but he turned out ok. Being a TOS fan, I thought Tim Russ did a wonderful job with Tuvok. I honestly don't think we got enough of him. He made credible Vulcan character who was different from Spock. And I loved Seven and thought the relationships with Janeway and the Doctor were great dramatically.

Chakotay was ok. Not much charisma or development imo. I didn't find him that interesting.

Neelix, as I said, I found to be profoundly irritating. He should have never been created.

Kes was a flawed concept. Having said that, I think Jennifer Lien had good acting chops and with some real commitment and imagination from the writers, they could have made her work.
Kim was just...there. And whiny. I honestly wouldn't care if he lived or died.

But if I could get rid of one character, it would definitely be Neelix, followed by Kes, Kim, and Chakotay. I liked all the rest.

 

[rocketscientist]

And wrt to Neelix being a foil for Tuvok, yeah, they did do that a bit, but not much and honestly, imo, it doesn't compare at all to the classic Spock-Bones feud or Odo-Quark. Part of that problem is they didn't give it enough screen time and part of it was Neelix wasn't really part of the command crew, so there weren't as many opportunities for sparring. In the beginning, especially, Neelix was with Kes and in any case, he interacted with all the characters in the mess.

So, yeah, there was something there, but I don't think they did much with it. And, even if they did, I don't think it would've made me like Neelix.

 

[Oddish]

Chakotay was ok. Not much charisma or development imo. I didn't find him that interesting.

The only interesting thing about Chakotay was his chemistry with Janeway. That's why YouTube has a seemingly endless supply of J/C fan videos.

Kim was just...there. And whiny. I honestly wouldn't care if he lived or died.

Common enough sentiment. But since he did not die, he should have been promoted to lieutenant.

 

[rocketscientist]

The only interesting thing about Chakotay was his chemistry with Janeway. That's why YouTube has a seemingly endless supply of J/C fan videos.

You're right. That's about all there was there. There was that episode where they were stranded on that planet and they kind of pushed that relationship to the limit on whether it ever got romantic.

And then there's the quick hookup of Chakotay and Seven at the very end of the show. I hated that and it made no sense.

Common enough sentiment. But since he did not die, he should have been promoted to lieutenant.

Yeah, they might as well.

 

[rocketscientist]

Y'know, though Voyager isn't my favorite, and though I criticize it, I'd like to make it clear that it did have some characters I really enjoyed: Janeway, Tuvok, Paris, Torres, the Doctor, and Seven and there definitely were some great ST stories told on the show. I've had seasons 3-7 for awhile now, but I just ordered season 1 on DVD too.

 

[rocketscientist]

I mean, I'm a TOS fan and I know it's easy for latter-day ST fans of the newer shows to pick the hell out of a show produced in the late 60s based on the limitations in SFX, production budget, the cultural norms back then, etc.

 

[Oddish]

If I could only make tiny changes (let's say a limit of one minute of added dialogue), I would go after the worst easily addressable inconsistencies.

1. Infinite shuttles.
2. Infinite torpedoes.
3. Ability to build new experimental spacecraft.
In "Night", explain in Chakotay's log that the crew has constructed or traded for a massive new industrial replicator that can produce torpedoes and shuttle parts. Have Tom briefly mention it in "Extreme Risk" when discussing Delta Flyer construction.
Time: 25s of monologue.

4. Harry's rank.
In "Night", Chakotay's log mentions that Harry Kim has volunteered to head up the shuttle building team. This increased responsibility comes with a promotion to lieutenant.
Time: 10s of monologue.

5. Voyager's speed.
Reduce Voyager's top speed from Warp 9.975 (5000c) to 9.73 (2250c), sustainable for a maximum of 12 hours. Specifically mention that her variable geometry warp field allows for high efficiency travel at warp 8. Most ships cruise at a mere warp 6.
Time: 15s of dialogue.

6. The awkward autodestruct sequence.
On the two occasions this happens, just have Tuvok say: "This is Lieutenant Commander Tuvok. I concur. Initiate self destruct sequence, authorization Tuvok zeta two four seven." No other dialogue needed, since it's reasonable to assume the captain can defuse the autodestruct sequence alone.
Time: 10s of dialogue, for both.

Total: 60s of dialogue. 6 inconsistencies eliminated.

 

[suarezguy]

Not sure but the show may have been better if Ken Biller rather than Braga became showrunner in Season 5 and 6 as well as 7 and/or if Moore had stayed and written handfuls of shows the last two seaosns.

 

[Lynx]

Y'know, though Voyager isn't my favorite, and though I criticize it, I'd like to make it clear that it did have some characters I really enjoyed: Janeway, Tuvok, Paris, Torres, the Doctor, and Seven and there definitely were some great ST stories told on the show. I've had seasons 3-7 for awhile now, but I just ordered season 1 on DVD too.

Not Kes?

I mean, I'm a TOS fan and I know it's easy for latter-day ST fans of the newer shows to pick the hell out of a show produced in the late 60s based on the limitations in SFX, production budget, the cultural norms back then, etc.

Thinking about it when you mention it, I don't think that I've ever have written one single negative post about TOS.

I consider TOS a masterpiece which was far ahead of its time when it was created and which came up with a lot of new ideas, not to mention characters like Kirk, Spock, McCoy, Scotty and all the others who are icons today. . In fact, without TOS we wouldn't have had TNG, DS9 or Voyager to watch, enjoy discuss and argue about.

Translated into musical terms, TOS was the Elvis of SF, the one which took all the SF influences there was and turned it to something new, unique and special which made it popular, not only in the US but in the whole world.

TNG was The Beatles of SF and Star Trek which gave the whole thing a rebirth in the right time, DS9 was The Rolling Stones of Star trek, basically the same concept as TNG but with a different approach and a sharper edge. Voyager can be considered like The Yardbirds, The Who or The Animals which didn't become as popular among common people as the previous shows but has some cult status and still is appreciated by a solid fanbase.

As for TOS and its possible limitations in SFX, production budgets, being masde in the 60's which was a different world, that doesbn't bother me at all. It has actually aged well. Not to mention the fact that good stories and good characters are always good, no matter which partcel it's delvered in.

I even like the old German series Space Patrol for the same reason, despite the fact that it's even more primitive than TOS when it comes to limitations in SFX and even storytelling. But the chartacters are interesting, especially Commander McLane. One of the non-Voyager characters in my Kes stories is loosely based on McLane.

 

[Lynx]

Not sure but the show may have been better if Ken Biller rather than Braga became showrunner in Season 5 and 6 as well as 7 and/or if Moore had stayed and written handfuls of shows the last two seaosns.

I think it would have been better if berman and Braga had been kicked out after season 3 and people like Biller and Moore had taken over. Berman and his gang did seem to lose interest and inspiration already in season 3.

Even better if Voyager had had another staff of writers already from tje beginning which could have made something even petter of the great characters and the wonderful premise the show had.