How we deal with death

[Steve Roby]

And yes, sometimes entertainers do what they can to make things "suck" to annoy a certain group of people. Rolling Stones were going to quit their record company Decca in 1971 but were contracted to record a final single for the company. And yes, they did! The song actually had a title which included the word "suck" if you understand what I mean and the lyrics made it impossible for Decca to release it.

Hardly a similar situation by any means. They were not obligated in any sense of the word to bring Kes back.

Yep. It's the ol' contractual obligation thing. We don't want to do it, you're forcing us to do it, well, how do you like this? That's what happened with "C***s****r Blues" (though it's actually an entertaining song), and it's why Lou Reed created Metal Machine Music, which I mentioned somewhere around here recently; it's a solid hour of layers of guitar feedback noise, possibly with some tape manipulation, and definitely not what the record company wanted. But it's got its own little cult following, to which I belong; I've got it on CD and have listened to it for pleasure and not just to annoy cats and neighbours.

But I digress. Voyager's writers were under no such obligation. Chances are, they thought it was a good idea. Chances are, they thought they were doing a good episode that the fans would enjoy. I think they were wrong, mind you.

Most of the Janeway fans did believe that the whole thing was just a stunt. It's recently that it has become known that her death will be permanent.

Give me names, give me figures, show me research.

I'm a Janeway fan, and god-willing when I read that she was dead my immediate thought was, "oh no she's dead" not, "hmm I wonder if this is a stunt"

When I read Before Dishonor, my reaction was, dead people don't go for coffee with aliens because they're too busy being dead. If Janeway and a Q are talking to each other, neither of them is dead. It's not like you can believe everything a Q says, after all. So I for one was surprised when the Pocket folks said no, she's dead, i.e., not in any sense alive and not coming back to life.

 

[Lynx]

THIS. A thousand times this. I fall into this category as well, but it sometimes feels like Lynx (and some others) believe we don't exist, or something. Part of the reason I've begun posting in these threads is to clarify that there is a middle-ground between the two extremes being presented by the "Bring Janeway back now" crowd: I have read too many posts that basically speak from a point of view that says if you aren't demanding that they bring Janeway back, if you aren't just FURIOUS over the "overly dark stories" and "needless character-destruction" that the books are engaging in, then you must LIKE it that she died, you must want to see LOTS of main characters die, you must LOVE the idea that TrekLit is spiraling into this bleak realm of hopelessness and despair (even though it's not, really). There are some of us who do not want to see Janeway just magically return tomorrow, and are very happy with the current state of TrekLit in general, yet at the same time, liked the character. In fact, if I DIDN'T like Janeway, I wouldn't have cared that much when she died. I thought it was well-written and powerful (that applies to Before Dishonor as a whole, IMO). And I want to see where things go from here. And I'm sorry, but seriously, TrekLit in general has a LONG way to do before it begins to feel like this nuBSG-style pit of dark despair and death that some of you are making it out to be.

Look, we GET that you are not happy with the direction of TrekLit, in particular with regard to Voyager. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, same as anyone. But so are we. And - weather you realize it or not - you are coming across as if you believe you are defending an objective fact, with statements about "unnecessary character destruction" and criticizing the authors for going one route, when they "should have" done something else.

Janeway died. The current author team, AFAIK, have said they have no plans to bring her back in the near future, but someday down the line, who knows? Voyager's crew... well, I won't comment on that, because I haven't read Full Circle. Which is part of the point: neither have you. So how can you judge it's content? To say nothing of the fact that you continually repeat your lack of interest in a story that is missing most of the Voyager cast, when multiple members including the FC author have stated that the book HAS most of the Voyager cast.
Why not just read the book? What if it's the coolest thing you've ever read in your life (or at least, the coolest thing relating to Voyager, at any rate )?

Oh yes, I'm aware of the fact that there is a "middle ground" here. In fact, there's always a "middle ground" in all conflicts but it's often rather small compared to the main opposites. But that doesn't mean that I'm ignoring or condemning it in any way.

I know that there are people out there who happen to like Janeway but are satisfied with the current events in the books. I respect that even if I find it hard to understand.

And yes, You are right about me being unhappy with the current direction of Star Trek books.

And I'm sorry but I'm not gonna take your advice about reading the book because I don't want to read any book with the slightest reference to Janeway's death because I simply refuse to accept it. In my universe Janeway is still alive and will continue to be that. Besides that, Kes, Neelix and Tuvok are missing too. To sum it up, as it is, there are too many negative factors involved in this and there's got to be something special if I will start to find the current storyline interesting in any way.

If I will read a Trek book again, it's got to be something when there are no connections to or references to death and destruction of characters from the TV series which I happen to like.

Steve Roby wrote:

Yep. It's the ol' contractual obligation thing. We don't want to do it, you're forcing us to do it, well, how do you like this? That's what happened with "C***s****r Blues" (though it's actually an entertaining song), and it's why Lou Reed created Metal Machine Music, which I mentioned somewhere around here recently; it's a solid hour of layers of guitar feedback noise, possibly with some tape manipulation, and definitely not what the record company wanted. But it's got its own little cult following, to which I belong; I've got it on CD and have listened to it for pleasure and not just to annoy cats and neighbours.

But I digress. Voyager's writers were under no such obligation. Chances are, they thought it was a good idea. Chances are, they thought they were doing a good episode that the fans would enjoy. I think they were wrong, mind you.

Well, this might look offensive but if those Voyager writers really thought that the fans in general and the Kes fans in particular should enjoy "Fury", then they really are idiots.

 

[Therin of Andor]

they could easily have written something better for Jennifer.

If writing for TV was "easily" done, there'd be no risk involved.

If they brought back Kes and "cured her" brief lifespan, people would have called it a cop out, including some of her dedicated fans.

If they brought back Kes only to kill her off, people would have called it a cheat, including some of her dedicated fans.

If they brought back Kes played by another actress, people would have called it a disgrace, including some of her dedicated fans.

If they brought back Kes and fired Jeri Ryan, people would have called it an outrage, including some dedicated Seven fans.

If they chose not to bring back Kes, people would have complained Paramount was ignoring their letter-writing campaigns and petitions, including some of her dedicated fans.

So they brought back elderly Kes, hoping to present an unexpected and scenery-chewing character in an interesting, suspenseful - and people called it "character destruction", including one of her dedicated fans.

Nothing easy about it.

I'm not gonna take your advice about reading the book because I don't want to read any book with the slightest reference to Janeway's death because I simply refuse to accept it.

Instead, you just continue to torture yourself here? It can't be helping you much.

 

[Saito S]

Oh yes, I'm aware of the fact that there is a "middle ground" here. In fact, there's always a "middle ground" in all conflicts but it's often rather small compared to the main opposites. But that doesn't mean that I'm ignoring or condemning it in any way.

Well, I'm not sure that the middle ground is really smaller in this case. Bear in mind I don't have any kind of evidence for this, it's only based on the posts I have read and the general feeling I perceive around here, but I highly doubt that the "I liked (or at least was neutral toward) Janeway, but I'm ok with her death" crowd is smaller than the "I HATED Janeway and cheered when she died! I only wish her demise had been more painful!" crowd.

I know that there are people out there who happen to like Janeway but are satisfied with the current events in the books. I respect that even if I find it hard to understand.

Well, I'd say the same from the other side. I can respect that you are not happy with the direction they are going, even if I don't understand your reasoning anymore than you understand mine.
But you need to realize that at times, you have come across strongly like you are arguing indisputable facts, as if there are truths that you are trying to make the rest of us aware of. I can accept that that may not have been intentional, though.

And I'm sorry but I'm not gonna take your advice about reading the book because I don't want to read any book with the slightest reference to Janeway's death because I simply refuse to accept it. In my universe Janeway is still alive and will continue to be that. Besides that, Kes, Neelix and Tuvok are missing too. To sum it up, as it is, there are too many negative factors involved in this and there's got to be something special if I will start to find the current storyline interesting in any way.

Well, you certainly don't have to read the book. That's your prerogative. But unless you DO read it, you really can't pass judgment on the quality of the content within said book. It's valid to say that you have no interest in it due to the absence of Janeway (or Tuvok), but that's really as far as it goes. Having said that... it's valid for you to not read the book, but I find it a little closed-minded to avoid it for those reasons.
And on a related subject... Neelix and Kes? They are not "missing" from the book. That's really not a fair criticism to make. Neelix stayed in the DQ, via a decision by the show's producers before the show ended, not the novel crew. And Kes - with the exception of "Fury" - has been gone since the beginning of season 4. It doesn't make sense to me to hold up the absence of either of those characters as reasons to not read the book. Granted, you already indicated that Janeway's absence alone might be enough to prevent you from reading it, but I thought it was worth commenting on anyway.

If I will read a Trek book again, it's got to be something when there are no connections to or references to death and destruction of characters from the TV series which I happen to like.

I have to say, I think you are dramatically overstating the supposed "Dark Trek" that you see developing. The death of a single character does not herald untold despair and destruction in the Trek universe, any more than any of the various main character deaths on the shows themselves did. And I truly don't understand the mindset that no main characters from the shows should ever be allowed to be killed off in the books. Again, how is this any different from when main characters died in the shows/movies?
Furthermore, while Trek (shows AND novels) is nowhere near a nuBSG level in terms of overtones of feeling really dark or hopeless, don't forget, it's not like it's always just been roses and ducks and bunnies. Consider "City on the Edge of Forever," "Chain of Command", "The Siege of AR-558," and "Course: Oblivion" (mainly for that ending, in that case), to present an example of a fairly dark or tragic storyline from each series (well, except Enterprise, cause I don't know it well enough to come up with an example).

 

[Therin of Andor]

That's why I think Janeway should go back and die straight away, because after the reaction we've seen here I just think it would be really really funny.

Actually, William Shatner brought Kirk back in "The Return", only to kill him off again, and then - after excellent sales - resurrected him a second time in "Avenger".

 

[Paris]

Actually, William Shatner brought Kirk back in "The Return", only to kill him off again, and then - after excellent sales - resurrected him a second time in "Avenger".

Shatner has the weirdest love-hate relationship with the Kirk character. He wanted him to die, then live, then die, then live again. So hard to understand that man sometimes...I read that he wasn't against the death of Kirk in Generations, but then a year or 2 later, he brings Kirk back in his novels...very odd...

 

[Steve Roby]

Steve Roby wrote:

Voyager's writers were under no such obligation. Chances are, they thought it was a good idea. Chances are, they thought they were doing a good episode that the fans would enjoy. I think they were wrong, mind you.

Well, this might look offensive but if those Voyager writers really thought that the fans in general and the Kes fans in particular should enjoy "Fury", then they really are idiots.

Well, that's a particularly harsh expression of the ol' "never attribute to malice that which you can attribute to incompetence" idea. There are other episodes of Voyager (and Enterprise) that could be used to support it, though.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

This reminds me of a post I made some time ago, and saved just in case it proved useful at some point down the road. Looks like one of those times:

[ScoobyDooFlashback-OoDooBeeDoo-OoDooBeeDoo]

On the killing of Trek characters:

Kill everybody. Then, resurrect them and kill them all again.

Ship corridors should run red (or green, or pink, etc.) with the blood of the vanquished. Entire worlds will tremble at the approach of he who emerges from the Darkness to unleash unparalleled death and destruction.

Legends will spring forth, songs will be sung, and children will cower in fear when stories of this Unequaled Reign of Terror are told in nights to come.

And standing amid the carnage, weapon of choice held high in triumph, will be Reginald Barclay.

That'll teach people to mock his holodeck programs, damn it.

Oh, and if that's not enough for 75 books, we can always add a subplot where...I don't know...a giant space thingee is threatening the entire known galaxy.

And it will not be canon.

Rather, it will transcend canon.

But, you won't have to read it to enjoy Articles of the Federation.

[/ScoobyDooFlashback-OoDooBeeDoo-OoDooBeeDoo]

WHY WON'T YOU WRITE THIS BOOK?! WHY?! WHY?! WHY?!

 

[Lynx]

If writing for TV was "easily" done, there'd be no risk involved.

depends on how it's done

If they brought back Kes and "cured her" brief lifespan, people would have called it a cop out, including some of her dedicated fans.

Some people would have complained but most of the fans would have been happy with it or at least accepted it. They did accept Spock's resurrection.

If they brought back Kes only to kill her off, people would have called it a cheat, including some of her dedicated fans.

Yes, but they more and less did that. Remember that the original plan was to kill her off.

If they brought back Kes played by another actress, people would have called it a disgrace, including some of her dedicated fans.

Yes, that would have been unacceptable.

If they brought back Kes and fired Jeri Ryan, people would have called it an outrage, including some dedicated Seven fans.

yes, because there was noo need to kick out Seven if Kes was brought back. Correcting one mistake by making another isn't a good idea.

If they chose not to bring back Kes, people would have complained Paramount was ignoring their letter-writing campaigns and petitions, including some of her dedicated fans.

Yes, but that would have been the lesser evil in this case. Ignorance is more tolerable than insulting the fans.

So they brought back elderly Kes, hoping to present an unexpected and scenery-chewing character in an interesting, suspenseful - and people called it "character destruction", including one of her dedicated fans.

Which is exactly what it was.

Instead, you just continue to torture yourself here? It can't be helping you much.

Torturing myself? Nah, that's a bit exaggerated. It's more that I'm dissapointed and is expressing that.

 

[Lynx]

Actually, William Shatner brought Kirk back in "The Return", only to kill him off again, and then - after excellent sales - resurrected him a second time in "Avenger".

Shatner has the weirdest love-hate relationship with the Kirk character. He wanted him to die, then live, then die, then live again. So hard to understand that man sometimes...I read that he wasn't against the death of Kirk in Generations, but then a year or 2 later, he brings Kirk back in his novels...very odd...

Yes, I'm surprised and dissapointed that he did agree to participate in "Generations" with that lame role for Kirk in that movie and he did surprise me even more when he brought back Kirk in his novels. I thought that he didn't care about neither Kirk, nor the fans.

 

[JoeZhang]

Actually, William Shatner brought Kirk back in "The Return", only to kill him off again, and then - after excellent sales - resurrected him a second time in "Avenger".

Shatner has the weirdest love-hate relationship with the Kirk character. He wanted him to die, then live, then die, then live again. So hard to understand that man sometimes...I read that he wasn't against the death of Kirk in Generations, but then a year or 2 later, he brings Kirk back in his novels...very odd...

Yes, I'm surprised and dissapointed that he did agree to participate in "Generations" with that lame role for Kirk in that movie and he did surprise me even more when he brought back Kirk in his novels. I thought that he didn't care about neither Kirk, nor the fans.

Shatner is old school it's all about the money.

 

[Thrawn]

Lynx, I know that you don't mean for things to come across this way, but it looks an awful lot like you're defining "care about the fans" as "do exactly what I want".

Can you tell me an instance in which something was done in a manner that was respectful and caring towards "the fans" that you personally disagreed with, or vice versa?

If not, you're - I'm sure unintentionally! - conflating two very different things. Personal preference and respect for the fans are quite distinct.

 

[Lynx]

I have to say, I think you are dramatically overstating the supposed "Dark Trek" that you see developing. The death of a single character does not herald untold despair and destruction in the Trek universe, any more than any of the various main character deaths on the shows themselves did. And I truly don't understand the mindset that no main characters from the shows should ever be allowed to be killed off in the books. Again, how is this any different from when main characters died in the shows/movies?
Furthermore, while Trek (shows AND novels) is nowhere near a nuBSG level in terms of overtones of feeling really dark or hopeless, don't forget, it's not like it's always just been roses and ducks and bunnies. Consider "City on the Edge of Forever," "Chain of Command", "The Siege of AR-558," and "Course: Oblivion" (mainly for that ending, in that case), to present an example of a fairly dark or tragic storyline from each series (well, except Enterprise, cause I don't know it well enough to come up with an example).

I have to comment on this one. When it comes to heralding despair and destruction in the Trek universe, well I'm afraid that it's heading in that direction. When the main character of Voyager can be killed off just like that, then I do see Pandora's Box opening up. I'm also afraid that Trek will begin to "sell out" to the trend of darker series which unfortunately has gained a certain popularity in recent years.

As for killing off or dumping main characters in the TV series, I do have some objections to that too as you probably have seen in some of my posts. But in some cases I can understand why it was done when there has been actors who have wanted out. But when it comes to the books, there are no whims of certain actors invoved to care about.

And when certain characters have survived seven years of a TV series, why kill them off. Better to let them retire or move to some remote planet to buy an ostrich farm or something like that if there's no role for them in the coming books.

It's also the fact that if you have learned to like a series, like Voyager in this case, and really like the characters and is buying the books to read more about their adventures, you might not llike to see them being killed off or become somthing they never were supposed to be.

If you start reading a book series about a Starfleet crew (like New Frontier for example) and find out after some books that you don't like the characters or the story, then it's easy to quit reading. It's harder to abandon something when you have followed it for a long time, have had some expectations for the "relaunch" in this case and it turns into something which is the exact opposite of what you once liked.

 

[Thrawn]

I have to comment on this one. When it comes to heralding despair and destruction in the Trek universe, well I'm afraid that it's heading in that direction. When the main character of Voyager can be killed off just like that, then I do see Pandora's Box opening up. I'm also afraid that Trek will begin to "sell out" to the trend of darker series which unfortunately has gained a certain popularity in recent years.

If you'd read the books in question, you would realize that this is nonsense. Destiny is the most hopeful Trek story I've ever read.

Again, I'm sure this is by accident, but you really have to be careful about drawing conclusions based only on your imagination! You can be "afraid" all you want, and I can't stop you, but you're basing that on what you think these stories are like, not what they're actually like at all!

No one is saying you have to read the stories, but we would appreciate it if you only commented on things you actually know about. I know it can be hard to imagine things playing out differently than you would think, but it can happen!

As for killing off or dumping main characters in the TV series, I do have some objections to that too as you probably have seen in some of my posts. But in some cases I can understand why it was done when there has been actors who have wanted out. But when it comes to the books, there are no whims of certain actors invoved to care about.

And when certain characters have survived seven years of a TV series, why kill them off. Better to let them retire or move to some remote planet to buy an ostrich farm or something like that if there's no role for them in the coming books.

In what way, besides your personal opinion, would this be "better"? One of our frustrations is that you - again, I'm sure totally by accident! - keep presenting your opinions as facts. This would be an opinion.

It's also the fact that if you have learned to like a series, like Voyager in this case, and really like the characters and is buying the books to read more about their adventures, you might not llike to see them being killed off or become somthing they never were supposed to be.

That's fair.

If you start reading a book series about a Starfleet crew (like New Frontier for example) and find out after some books that you don't like the characters or the story, then it's easy to quit reading. It's harder to abandon something when you have followed it for a long time, have had some expectations for the "relaunch" in this case and it turns into something which is the exact opposite of what you once liked.

How is following a book series for over a decade (NF started in 97) "easier" to stop than following a TV series for 7 years? What makes TV more important than books?

 

[William Leisner]

So they brought back elderly Kes, hoping to present an unexpected and scenery-chewing character in an interesting, suspenseful - and people called it "character destruction", including one of her dedicated fans.

Which is exactly what it was.

Instead, you just continue to torture yourself here? It can't be helping you much.

Torturing myself? Nah, that's a bit exaggerated. It's more that I'm dissapointed and is expressing that.

If carrying around this kind of "disappointment" over a TV show for close to nine years doesn't fall under the definition of self-torture, I'm not sure what does.

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, I know that you don't mean for things to come across this way, but it looks an awful lot like you're defining "care about the fans" as "do exactly what I want".

Can you tell me an instance in which something was done in a manner that was respectful and caring towards "the fans" that you personally disagreed with, or vice versa?

If not, you're - I'm sure unintentionally! - conflating two very different things. Personal preference and respect for the fans are quite distinct.

You have to give me some time with this one. Right now, I can't remember any situation where I've reacted strongly against a decision from some producer/writer in order to please a majority of fans.

I remember being p***ed off with the hate campaign against Wesley Crusher. OK, he wasn't a favorite of mine but I did find the hatred against him distasteful. Fortunately, those in charge never really dumped him.

If you'd read the books in question, you would realize that this is nonsense. Destiny is the most hopeful Trek story I've ever read.

It might be hopeful, but I simply can't accept that Janeway is killed off.

How is following a book series for over a decade (NF started in 97) "easier" to stop than following a TV series for 7 years? What makes TV more important than books?

I wasn't exactly referring to NF, it was more an example in this case. It could have been an entirely new book series or "Enterprise" which I did quit after 5 episodes. I've read some of the NF books, they are actually OK.

 

[Lynx]

So they brought back elderly Kes, hoping to present an unexpected and scenery-chewing character in an interesting, suspenseful - and people called it "character destruction", including one of her dedicated fans.

Which is exactly what it was.

Instead, you just continue to torture yourself here? It can't be helping you much.

Torturing myself? Nah, that's a bit exaggerated. It's more that I'm dissapointed and is expressing that.

If carrying around this kind of "disappointment" over a TV show for close to nine years doesn't fall under the definition of self-torture, I'm not sure what does.

Honestly, I try to focus on the positive with Voyager, despite some dissapointments.

Please read some of my comments about the episodes in the thread "A hater re-visits Voyager" in the Voyager forum or my book reviews at my Kes website.

 

[Sci]

Seriously, how many more times are we going to have this exact same argument?

 

[Lynx]

Seriously, how many more times are we going to have this exact same argument?

As long as the dog is screaming!

 

[JustKate]

Seriously, how many more times are we going to have this exact same argument?

I'm not sure there is a computer or branch of mathematics in existence that can answer this question, but if you want my guess, it would be "many more."

As for the picture: