How we deal with death

[Lynx]

Let us look at it this way: There was a letter-campaign going for having Kes re-instated as a regular character. Instead of doingt that, those in charge did choose to make an episode which totally destroyed the character and insulted the fans of the character.

When those in charge saw the bad reaction from most fans (not only the Kes fans) to the episode and there were people sending in suggestions for how to restore the character, wouldn't it have been a nice gesture to bring back and restore the character for maybe one or two episodes at the end?

In my experience (and I've been part of several of these), letter campaigns have little to no effect except in a very few exceptions (Star Trek, Jericho) and only then it's to get the series re-enstated, never a character.

The negative reaction to the episode is actually likely to have had the opposite reaction to the one you want. Why would they make another episode focusing on a guest character when the last one was so badly received?

Also episodes don't generally get made to make nice gestures, they get made to tell stories. However on the odd occasion when they are done for the fans they don't turn out well (just look at "These are the Voyages", B&B's love letter to Trek fans everywhere. **shudder**)

Well, that confirms my theory that those in charge don't give a d*** about the fans. They only care about money, ratings and themselves. I haven't watched "These Are The Voyages" but I guess that it was another masterpiece from B&B which (deliberately or not) insulted a lot of fans.

As for the negative reaction to the episode, it was because of the character destruction in it. An episode where Kes was restored back to normal would have had a more positive response from many fans, not only the Kes fans.

Paris wrote:

Sorry Lynx, but I have to agree with Trek. Since "Fury" was so poorly received, I think making another episode or two with a character that they really had no interest in, would have been a bad idea. It would have looked like they were trying to cover up the mistake they made with "Fury", and would have been an utter waste of time, especially if they did it to just satiate the need of a small part of the fan base. I know you don't consider the letter writing Kes fans to be a small part, but in reality, they really are. If she was that beloved by Voyagers fans, then the PTB would never have fired her.

Yes, but was it necessary to insult that "small part of the fanbase" in the first place?

They had two options: They could have brought back the character in the last season or they couldn't have brought her back at all.

What they did was to insult that "small part of the fanbase", especially those of the fanbase who had participated in that letter campaign by coming up with a diabolical episode where the character was portrayed as a crazy idiot who was supposed to be killed off at the end. They must have realized that the fans of the characters would be highly dissapointed over such a story, if they didn't, then they must be idiots and I don't think that they are that. So if they realy were the good-hearted Star Trek creators and caretakers they often pretended to be, then they could have done something to correct their stupidity in this case.

 

[JoeZhang]

They only care about money, ratings

Say it's not true!

I thought they were running a really cool charity!

 

[William Leisner]

Well, that confirms my theory that those in charge don't give a d*** about the fans. They only care about money, ratings and themselves.

Sokath, his eyes uncovered!!

 

[Paris]

I would have preferred a completely different episode as well. There was no need to shit on Kes...On a side note, I was wondering if when you type in "d***", does it stand for dick? Is there a rule against this kind of language that i'm unaware of? If this is the case, i'm sorry if i've offended anyone with my casual swearing here and there. But if you are just being polite, then I totally understand...

Shaka...when the walls fell...

 

[JoeZhang]

Well, that confirms my theory that those in charge don't give a d*** about the fans. They only care about money, ratings and themselves.

Sokath, his eyes uncovered!!

you win this round Leisner...

 

[Lynx]

I would have preferred a completely different episode as well. There was no need to shit on Kes...On a side note, I was wondering if when you type in "d***", does it stand for dick? Is there a rule against this kind of language that i'm unaware of? If this is the case, i'm sorry if i've offended anyone with my casual swearing here and there. But if you are just being polite, then I totally understand...

Shaka...when the walls fell...

No, in this case d*** stands for "damn". I don't use the other word on message boards just because of certain rules.

I guess I have to be more careful, maybe putting an "n" at the end after the stars.

 

[Lynx]

Well, that confirms my theory that those in charge don't give a d*** about the fans. They only care about money, ratings and themselves.

Sokath, his eyes uncovered!!

Or more precisely: Lynx, his eyes uncovered for a long time.

 

[Thrawn]

And how do you GET fans?

By making the best product you can.

Which is what they're trying to do. Failing occasionally, perhaps, but that is the goal. If you think otherwise, you're a complete idiot.

Never ascribe to malice what incompetence explains handily.

 

[Lynx]

And how do you GET fans?

By making the best product you can.

Which is what they're trying to do. Failing occasionally, perhaps, but that is the goal. If you think otherwise, you're a complete idiot.

Never ascribe to malice what incompetence explains handily.

Well, they did lose the Kes fans and some other fans as well during the series so obviously their attempts failed.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

Well, that confirms my theory that those in charge don't give a d*** about the fans. They only care about money, ratings and themselves.

Sokath, his eyes uncovered!!

Crap, that was funny. Thank you, Bill.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Well, that confirms my theory that those in charge don't give a d*** about the fans.

Actually, they do. Quite a lot of fans here have said that they like the direction that the series has taken with the death of Janeway. Doubtless many more people not here agree. It doesn't seem to have hurt book sales.

 

[Thrawn]

And how do you GET fans?

By making the best product you can.

Which is what they're trying to do. Failing occasionally, perhaps, but that is the goal. If you think otherwise, you're a complete idiot.

Never ascribe to malice what incompetence explains handily.

Well, they did lose the Kes fans and some other fans as well during the series so obviously their attempts failed.

Yes. They did. Doesn't mean they weren't trying.

It's completely inane and nonsensical to ever think anyone in charge of a product of any kind, entertainment or otherwise, would intentionally make it suck.

 

[DimesDan]

And how do you GET fans?

By making the best product you can.

Which is what they're trying to do. Failing occasionally, perhaps, but that is the goal. If you think otherwise, you're a complete idiot.

Never ascribe to malice what incompetence explains handily.

Well, they did lose the Kes fans and some other fans as well during the series so obviously their attempts failed.

And they gain fans as well. Just goes with the territory I'm afraid.

 

[Dayton Ward]

It's completely inane and nonsensical to ever think anyone in charge of a product of any kind, entertainment or otherwise, would intentionally make it suck.

If everyone actually understood this, the result would be the removal of one of the three legs propping up the internet as a viable communications and information exchange medium.


The other two legs being music downloads and porn, of course.

 

[JoeZhang]

Different field but...

I've mentioned before that I write factual books and articles on a number of subjects. Any-ho, I wrote a series of articles on some aspects of policing. Those were all done independently with no input or contact from the police. Shortly after they were published I received all sorts of lurid emails explaining in detail

1) How the police had paid me off to write a non-critical piece

2) How socialists had paid me off to write a critical piece about the police

3) How I wrote the piece because I'd been recruited into the security services at university

etc etc etc.

And the funny thing is - I got the same reaction when I wrote an article about digital media, I was a plant, I'd been paid off etc etc etc.

It's quite funny in it's own way.

Having said that, don't believe a word that rat bastard Ward says or the rest of those stoogies at Pocket, you see the truth is they are being paid off by....

 

[Lynx]

And how do you GET fans?

By making the best product you can.

Which is what they're trying to do. Failing occasionally, perhaps, but that is the goal. If you think otherwise, you're a complete idiot.

Never ascribe to malice what incompetence explains handily.

Well, they did lose the Kes fans and some other fans as well during the series so obviously their attempts failed.

Yes. They did. Doesn't mean they weren't trying.

It's completely inane and nonsensical to ever think anyone in charge of a product of any kind, entertainment or otherwise, would intentionally make it suck.

Don't you find it a little odd that they all of a sudden bring back a character who they have made everything to erase from the history of the series just to ruin, humiliate and finally kill off the character (as they actually intended to do) and that in coincide with a letter campaign meant to bring back the character as a regular character.

And yes, sometimes entertainers do what they can to make things "suck" to annoy a certain group of people. Rolling Stones were going to quit their record company Decca in 1971 but were contracted to record a final single for the company. And yes, they did! The song actually had a title which included the word "suck" if you understand what I mean and the lyrics made it impossible for Decca to release it.

rfmcdpei wrote:

Actually, they do. Quite a lot of fans here have said that they like the direction that the series has taken with the death of Janeway. Doubtless many more people not here agree. It doesn't seem to have hurt book sales.

It haven't hurt book sales yet because many fans have bought the books before knowing that Janeway's death should be permanent. I'm also sure that the books will attract some of those who hate Janeway who might want to read abut her death.

But then? With many hardcore Voyager fans leaving because of that direction, will those new fans stay?

Don't forget that the TrekLit fans are only a small fraction of all Voyager fans. Wouldn't it have been better to try to attract those Voyager fans in general and Janeway fans in particular who are not that interested in the books yet?

 

[JoeZhang]

Wouldn't it have been better to try to attract those Voyager fans in general and Janeway fans in particular who are not that interested in the books yet?

They are suddenly going to become interested in the books eight years after the final episode aired? I see...

 

[JB2005]

Well, they did lose the Kes fans and some other fans as well during the series so obviously their attempts failed.

Yes. They did. Doesn't mean they weren't trying.

It's completely inane and nonsensical to ever think anyone in charge of a product of any kind, entertainment or otherwise, would intentionally make it suck.

Don't you find it a little odd that they all of a sudden bring back a character who they have made everything to erase from the history of the series just to ruin, humiliate and finally kill off the character (as they actually intended to do) and that in coincide with a letter campaign meant to bring back the character as a regular character.

not really, i suppose they wanted to give the character closure (ie send Kes home...) so as to make the Kes fans happy (fail...) and give Jennifer Lien a chance to stretch her acting muscles and do something different (the brutes)

And yes, sometimes entertainers do what they can to make things "suck" to annoy a certain group of people. Rolling Stones were going to quit their record company Decca in 1971 but were contracted to record a final single for the company. And yes, they did! The song actually had a title which included the word "suck" if you understand what I mean and the lyrics made it impossible for Decca to release it.

and because the rolling stones all went on to become writers for voyager...

rfmcdpei wrote:

Actually, they do. Quite a lot of fans here have said that they like the direction that the series has taken with the death of Janeway. Doubtless many more people not here agree. It doesn't seem to have hurt book sales.

It haven't hurt book sales yet because many fans have bought the books before knowing that Janeway's death should be permanent. I'm also sure that the books will attract some of those who hate Janeway who might want to read abut her death.

it hasn't hurt book sales because there haven't been any voyager books since Janeway died...

But then? With many hardcore Voyager fans leaving because of that direction, will those new fans stay?

well if they're new they're not that attatched to the janeway character...

Don't forget that the TrekLit fans are only a small fraction of all Voyager fans. Wouldn't it have been better to try to attract those Voyager fans in general and Janeway fans in particular who are not that interested in the books yet?

so infact we have no idea how the majority of voyager fans feel at all...

 

[Thrawn]

Don't you find it a little odd that they all of a sudden bring back a character who they have made everything to erase from the history of the series just to ruin, humiliate and finally kill off the character (as they actually intended to do) and that in coincide with a letter campaign meant to bring back the character as a regular character.

No, I don't find it odd. "People want to see this character again; let's bring her back, and make it a really dramatic, surprising episode!" Again, did they suck at it? Yes, more or less inarguably.

And yes, sometimes entertainers do what they can to make things "suck" to annoy a certain group of people. Rolling Stones were going to quit their record company Decca in 1971 but were contracted to record a final single for the company. And yes, they did! The song actually had a title which included the word "suck" if you understand what I mean and the lyrics made it impossible for Decca to release it.

Hardly a similar situation by any means. They were not obligated in any sense of the word to bring Kes back.

But then? With many hardcore Voyager fans leaving because of that direction, will those new fans stay?

Maybe. Maybe not. All creative decisions are risks.

Don't forget that the TrekLit fans are only a small fraction of all Voyager fans. Wouldn't it have been better to try to attract those Voyager fans in general and Janeway fans in particular who are not that interested in the books yet?

Maybe. Maybe not. All creative decisions are risks.

Your argument is no better than theirs.

 

[Lynx]

not really, i suppose they wanted to give the character closure (ie send Kes home...) so as to make the Kes fans happy (fail...) and give Jennifer Lien a chance to stretch her acting muscles and do something different (the brutes)

The character didn't need that "closure", they must have known that they would insult and annoy the fans of the character with that crap story, otherwise they must have been idiots (which I don't think they are) and they could easily have written something better for Jennifer.

and because the rolling stones all went on to become writers for voyager...

It's a pity that they didn't. They would probably have done a better job than Berman's gang.